"Attack the post, not the poster" should be removed as a rule

I don’t think the rule is meant to allow people to be assholes in GD or P&E. The way I originally understood the rule was that it’s better to say that a post is wrong or false, rather than saying “you’re wrong”. That way, the person who made the post doesn’t feel attacked.

Another example – “this post seems confused – do you mean this or that…?” vs. “you’re confused and you’re not making sense.”

So, “attack” means “argue against what’s in the post, don’t personalize the argument.”

I agree that the “don’t be a jerk” rule should be more heavily moderated in GD and P&E. I’ve often said that bullshit nicknames for politicians should likewise be banned from those forums (Shrub, Obummer, CFSG). While I’m at it, if I were emperor, I would also ban bullshit nicknames for political parties (Dumbocrats, Rethuglicans, etc.). Save that shit for the Pit.

Anyway, I think that people have interpreted “attack the post” to mean “say what you want about the post” rather than “address the points in the post without personalizing it.” I agree with my latter definition, and think that actual attacks should always be off limits in GD and P&E.

I don’t like the rule, but I think it’s the best we can achieve.

There are layers of fail-safes in place to keep it from getting stupid. First, there are human moderators who can make a judgment call, and second, the members can discuss it in ATMB if someone feels that judgment was in error.

I like the rule as it stands now.

~Max

ISTM it’s more of a guideline than a rule – “your post is fucking embarrassingly pathetic” would (rightfully) probably be modded outside of the Pit, even though it’s “attacking the post”, because it’s way beyond any sort of normal discourse. The “don’t be a jerk” rule (which really is a rule) works here and overrules the “attack the post” guideline. But I think it’s still a pretty good guideline anyway, since in most cases it is a good thing to follow.

There are a great many people who would have to exert great self restraint to take down an argument, at least on certain topics, without using language like “bullshit”, “garbage”, “drivel”, or “lies”. These people are what we call “passionate”. It comes naturally in the forum where “passion is high because the stakes are small”.

Passion is not necessarily incivility. There is a mountain of difference between calling a person a pile of shit and saying their opinions are shit.

~Max

Honestly, from what I can see Jonathan Chance put a lot of work and effort into overhauling the rules for the very difficult to moderate P&E and GD. The Attack the post and not the poster appeared to be the most central rule in the new rules and I have tried to enforce that.

I also try to keep in mind that in enforcement via reports (flags) an unpopular poster is far more likely to be flagged than someone who most of the posters agree with.

I prioritize Attack the Post and not the posters and trying to prevent hijacks. The rest are fairly uncommon.

We also get GD threads without a debate framed and I move those out or close them.

Right, but there’s no reason to say either. It’s not like it’s a face-to-face confrontation and we’re having some sort of lickspittle verbal fight.

Rather than “your opinions are shit”, why not “I don’t understand how you can post that, given x and y.” Or, “I understand that’s your opinion in this post, but it’s not backed by facts, for example cite 1, cite 2.” Or, “my issue with the opinion expressed in your post is that it will lead to (bad outcomes).” Something like that.

All of those “attack” the post without being a jerk about it. If you change that to “you’re wrong about that because of x and y” or “your opinions are wrong because of this or that” or “your opinion flies in the face of the facts”, even though they aren’t uncivil, they would probably make the poster feel personally attacked.

It’s basic to the concept of rational debate. Anything else is ad hominem.

What I don’t like about the wording is that it literally encourages being aggressive against someone’s post. Yes, I get that it’s meant to be pithy and shouldn’t be taken literally, but we shouldn’t be encouraging people to “attack” a post. That seems to give a green light to uncivil behavior and generally jerkishness, as long as it has the fig leaf of being against a post.

I prefer the phrase we use on Wikipedia, which is simpler; “no personal attacks”. It achieves what the SDMB is trying to do, but without the implication of a loophole.

Also, one line in the NPA policy on Wikipedia that’s useful, “Comment on content, not on the contributor.”

“Attack the post, not the poster” is fine, but is only necessary, and not sufficient, to avoid breaking the rules. That is, attacking the post, not the poster, does not let one ignore other rules, like “don’t be a jerk”. If you’re being a jerk while attacking the post, you’re breaking the rules.

These are good.

You are wrong. “I don’t understand how you can post that, given X and Y” does not communicate contempt for the post. In fact it may very well be a lie.

And no, if you demonstrate contempt for someone’s position, that does not automatically make you a jerk.

~Max

Why should I demonstrate contempt for someone’s position in GD and P&E. I may have contempt for them, but if I feel I have to express it, I should do so in the Pit.

In GD and P&E, I can disagree with someone, show them cites to back up my disagreement, and offer alternative opinions. There’s no reason to show contempt.

I think there are many people who are incapable or unwilling to participate in dispassionate debate, at least for certain subjects they are passionate about. I cannot envision either forum without such people, as their perspectives are invaluable.

Take a current event for example. Let’s say your rules go into effect, and someone opens a thread to argue that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is justified. A Ukrainian citizen then carefully goes point by point to explain why the OP is wrong, but naturally they also use colorful language to show how contemptable the OP’s argument is. A mod steps in and warns the Ukrainian for being too passionate, because GD and P&E is no longer that kind of forum, and they may have indirectly offended the OP by demonstrating their contempt for the post.

~Max

Agree, it’s a good guideline. It’s breaks down when people think that because attacking the poster is always wrong, therefore attacking the post is always OK.

Keep the catchphrase, but explain that “but I attacked the post!” isn’t some get-out-of-jail-free card. And then mod such comments appropriately.

I like that, I never liked the attack word in the rule anyway. But the wording is actually pretty old as I recall.

Such as this?

~Max

When I see threads that will likely result in strong feelings, I typically see them moved to the Pit. I could definitely imagine a thread started by some Russian troll saying that the invasion is justified going immediately to the Pit.

And, many times I’ve seen just the dispassionate responses you mention, with a note at the end like, “and, for the rest of my response, I’ll see you in the Pit.”

Your argument is idiotic.

Now, how would you characterize my statement above? Was it useful, did it continue a good debate? Obviously not, it’s exactly the kind of thing that should be against the rules in GD, IMHO, and pretty much any forum except the Pit. Being passionate does not mean the same thing as being a jerk.

The goal of “attack the post” (or the better suggestion of “comment on content”) is not to ensure that no one is ever offended. It’s to foster good discussion and debate.

Absolutely. That language is great. No issue with it. It’s the other phrase that I think might mislead people, and/or give them an excuse to misbehave.

That is sometimes an issue though. We’ve had a few people who just feel too strongly about certain subjects, and break rules in their passion to express them. And that’s not okay. I won’t mention any names, but I can think of a few posters on this board who I generally respect and usually agree with, and enjoy their contributions here. But if they get involved in discussions that involve a particular topic, they go over-the-top. It frequently derails threads and causes problems. And that’s unfortunate, but no, those perspectives aren’t worth it. A discussion forum can’t be the “So-and-So Show”, as often happens.

That is the difference between demonstrating contempt as incident to a passionate post, versus demonstrating contempt for the sake of demonstrating contempt.

~Max