# Attawapiskat - Solutions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344 "2011-12-07T04:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/141 "2012-01-02T03:50:38Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > Sorry, your ancestors didn’t have a million square miles to sell. The Natives didn’t have it to ‘sell’, either. Any particular Native group didn’t buy it from another such group they took it from before Europeans arrived. They held land due to right of conquest or the fact that no one else was using it at the time. And just because they wandered from place to place doesn’t give them claim to owning the intervening territory. The same as I don’t own the ground between my house and work. But who knows? I don’t have an inheritance because of any land my ancestors once held. They either sold it, or it was stolen, or they never had it. But in all cases, I’d have no current or future claim to it. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/142 "2012-01-02T05:28:53Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > It seems rather selfish to declare that people are wasting their lives if they aren’t contributing to modern society in some way. To what extent should we be drawing the line of such waste, even in principle? I’m not a doctor or lawyer or any of those things, and I doubt my contribution to society is massive. Is my life wasted? **Revenant Threshold** I’m not sure I understand you. I wouldn’t think they have to be doctors and lawyers to be judged as not wasting their lives. If they hung sheetrock or fixed plumbing I would think that was fine as well. The only Canadian Indian I’ve ever met was a DBA that worked in Bahrain with me for a couple of years. Good DBA and a good guy. I’d never have known he was any kind of Indian except we were drinking one night and it came up. Had a good job, friends, the respect of his peers, all of that. He was certainly not wasting his life. I think most anything except the helpless, hopeless apathy and entitled attitude that I see and read about would be fine. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/143 "2012-01-03T02:53:15Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You in Burlington “own” the land that your house is built upon, but what this really means is that it is the Crown’s land, and you are a tenant, probably holding your interest in fee simple as a sole tenant. If you and your ex “owned” a home together, have a look at the deed from back then. It is most likely that the two of you held it in fee simple as joint tenants, or possibly as tenants in common. My point is that you are just a tenant, although you “own” your land. > > The difference between your estate in your land (the bundle of rights that you have with respect to your land), and an Indian’s estate in his reserve land (the bundle of rights that he has with respect to his reserve land), is that you can transfer or encumber your interest in your land to anyone, whereas the Indian can only transfer or encumber his interest in his reserve land to other Indians, to the band, or back to the Crown… You used a great many words to simply admit what amounts to the fact that I owned land, and an aboriginal on a reserve cannot. You are attempting to lawyer-speak distinctions that simply do not amount to a difference of any significance in discussing why this issue is the way it is. I really didn’t think it necessary to mention things like the fact that the government has plenipotentiary powers with regards to the airspace over my land and such other legal meanderings. In terms of how these things affect real human beings 99.99% of the time, a person can own land in Annapolis and can’t own it in Attawapiskat. Honestly, the lawyering isn’t helping. If someone said “hey, it’s a free country” would you argue that it’s not because I’m not free to do things forbidden by the Criminal Code? > [@](#): > > Other misconceptions include the sometimes voiced belief that Indians are required to live on reserves (when in fact they are free to live wherever they chose but do not want to leave their family and community – you and I have already covered this point), and that everything is free for Indians because they are Indians (when in fact the so-called handouts to bands and individual Indians are for the most part based on the government trying to deal with poverty as opposed to there being an inherent right to handouts – as I have coverd up-thread). Given that these are not misconceptions I have ever laboured under, why’re you mentioning them? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/144 "2012-01-03T03:17:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You used a great many words to simply admit what amounts to the fact that I owned land, and an aboriginal on a reserve cannot. Nope. RickJay, you have your opinion on what constitutes ownership. I obviously am not able to convince you otherwise. I will continue with my career that deals with this on a daily basis. You will continue with your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/145 "2012-01-03T04:12:53Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Nope. RickJay, you have your opinion on what constitutes ownership. My opinion in this regard, is, frankly, the common understanding of the everyday use of the term “own” used by almost every educated person in the English-speaking world - including you, I suspect - and is for that purpose totally and obviously accurate. If someone were to say “Hey, let’s hop into my car and go to the store” would you respond that they don’t own the car because, technically, according to a variety of laws and precedent, the government owns the ability to use the car in most situations and could, furthermore, take the car from a citizen under a variety of pretexts? Or would you just accept a person can own a damned car in the sense most sane people use the term “own”? Do you ever refer to your passport as “My passport”? Let’s get back to the topic at hand, and not pretend that, for all practical intents, you can own land in most places in Canada but not on reserves, because that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/146 "2012-01-03T04:35:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Let’s get back to the topic at hand, and not pretend that, for all practical intents, you can own land in most places in Canada but not on reserves, because that’s the way it is. Nope. You are way off course on your understanding of land ownership by Indians when it comes to reserves. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/147 "2012-01-03T04:48:30Z")
**Muffin** has made an important legal distinction. You can own your car, and do with it as you please: sell it, drive it, loan it to a friend. Nobody can use it or take it away from you without your say-so. The same applies to your I-Pod, your collection of CDs, your favourite pair of blue jeans, and everything else you own. Except land. Land is different. You literally own your land at the pleasure of the Crown. The technical reasons why this is the way things are today come down from the feudalistic days, and would take too long to go into here. Regardless, as things are today, your land can be taken away from you at any time by the Crown despite your protests, though that almost never happens; and when it does, you are compensated fairly for it. That cannot happen with your car. I’ll defer to **Muffin** ’s knowledge of Aboriginal land affairs, as it is not an area in which I practice. But I do want to point out that how one owns land is not as easy to understand as how one owns a car. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/148 "2012-01-03T15:48:52Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Nope. You are way off course on your understanding of land ownership by Indians when it comes to reserves. Whoa, really? Aboriginals can personally buy and sell land on reserves? **Spoons:** I know it’s different, just as the way you own a stock is different from the way you own your bank account. The way you own a dog is, legally, quite different from the way you own a couch. Legally speaking, the way you own a frickin’ TREE can be quite radically different from the way you own furniture made out of trees. But all are owned by a real or legal person. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/149 "2012-01-03T19:07:52Z")
Maybe the ultimate solution to Attawapiskat, and places like it, is education. From an interesting [item](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/this-teacher-is-on-a-mission-to-educate-first-nations/article2289480/) in today’s Globe and Mail: > [@](#): > > Ms. Durant-Dudley [the teacher featured in the Globe item] started those Wednesday drives in 2009. Since then, thanks to her efforts and the opening of a nearby mine, residents of Wahgoshig First Nation have been breaking out of the cycle of poverty and poor education that blights many aboriginal communities. > > Close to $3-billion began streaming into the area around Wahgoshig in 2010, with the construction of a gold mine and a cluster of dams along the lower Mattagami River opening up hundreds jobs, some of which paid $29 an hour. But for many locals, the requirement of a Grade 12 education put those jobs out of reach. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/150 "2012-01-03T20:03:44Z")
But the motivation to get educated came because the jobs arrived. The renaissance of that reservation began with the jobs; once the jobs arrived, having a high school diploma become a more sensible thing to do. People tend to forget that attaining educational landmarks is not something you do for kicks unless you’re wealthy (relatively speaking.) People need an economic argument to sit in class for years on end. No jobs means no jobs; if the people of Attawapiskat all had post-grad degrees they’d still mostly be poor, unless they packed up and left. There’s a reason so few people live up north; there just isn’t a lot going on, and where there is, it’s usually centred around mining and forestry. The reserves lucky enough to be near a mine can break out of the cycle of poverty because there’s actually something to do. But not all are so lucky (Attawapiskat is actually a pretty good hike from the diamond mine, and the mine is not on the reserve.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/151 "2012-01-03T22:08:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Whoa, really? Aboriginals can personally buy and sell land on reserves? To other Indians, yes, to non-indians or Indians who for one reason or another are not permitted to live on the reserve, no. For a non-Indian example of restrictions on transfer, have a look at Denmark, where but for a few exceptions, land in Denmark can not be sold to non-residents, whereas residents of Denmark can buy, sell, trade, mortgage or bequeath land with other residents of Denmark to their hearts’ content. Take that concept any apply it to Status Indians on reserves. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/152 "2012-01-04T00:42:08Z")
Yes, education (both formal and informal) is vital to reserves joining the first world. Without education, there is no hope. For example, on remote reserves there is a sense of hopelessness that pervades the communities, so the suicide rates on reserves are extremely high. Last year the [overall suicide rate in Pikangikum was .47%](http://netnewsledger.com/2011/10/05/john-rafferty-on-aboriginal-youth-suicide/), whereas the [overall national rate and the national rate for high school aged kids are both down at roughly about .01%](http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/hlth66d-eng.htm). Internet based education is growing, and may offer better results if made in conjuction with on-reserve teachers, however, program delivery is difficult and still does not solve the cultural dislocation that remote on-reserve Indians face if they eventually move off-reserve. I expect that eventually a combination of web learning, hands on teaching, and gradual introduction into off-reserve life will yield better results, but that sort of blended approach has not been put in place. We all know about the tragedy of residential schools operated by non-aboriginal authorities. The approach currently taken in Ontario is based on remote reserves not having populations deemed sufficient by the federal and provincial governments to support secondary schools, so students who wish to complete secondary school must do so via the internet or by moving out of their communities. Off-reserve, most secondary schools are jointly funded by the province and by individual municipalities, both of which have taxation authority, whereas on-reserve, education is funded by the feds and the reserves, but the reserves are poor and do not have taxation authority. The province could step up and kick in toward education on reserves, but Status Indians do not pay income tax (provincial or federal) and do not pay the provincial portion of the goods and services tax, so for the most part, the province pushes the feds to pay more rather than dip into the province’s funds. When Indians from remote reserves seek secondary education, they usually move to one of the urban centres and live with family or friends while attending regular urban high schools. Those high schools sometimes have resources that specifically address the difficulties that students have when moving from a remote reserve. A few communities also have high schools that are run by Indian band associations, and which only accept students from remote reserves. These schools put a tremendous effort in addressing the problems faced by students moving from remote reserves. For students who do not have amily or friends with which to board, Indian band association schools offer placement with Indian families. Despite the very great efforts made by the students, staff and families, the results are often disheartening, for there are huge problems with substance abuse, gang association, cultural dislocation, and sever homesickness, which very often leads to violence and suicides. For example, an Indian band association school in my community graduates about a dozen students per year, while there usually is a suicide at least every couple of years, in addition to deaths from mischance (for example, drinking by the river during the winter). When you do the math (e.g. 5 suicides over 8 years in a four year program in which each cohort is a dozen or less), it comes out to a suicide rate of about .63%. While some of these kids who come here do well, far too many of them come here and die. These are kids who want an educaton. They want to do well and get on with their lives. They do the best that they are able. They are the cream of the crop of young people from their reserves. [Yet they continue to die, at rates that are even higher than when on-reserve.](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/archives/its-time-to-shed-some-light-on-native-suicides-in-thunder-bay/article673307/) It is truly heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/153 "2012-01-04T03:39:22Z")
Look at the fuss that’s being made - and quite deservedly so - about bullying and suicide in the general teen population. Now imagine if the rate was forty seven times higher. That’s what it is to be an Indian kid. I don’t know if it’d be a national outrage or if we’d become cold to it. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/154 "2012-01-04T03:49:35Z")
I wonder if it is more along the lines there isn’t damned thing we can do about it without being damned for doing something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/155 "2012-01-06T18:57:37Z")
New thread in GD: Should Canadian First Nations be granted the power to banish their own members? If such a banishment power is granted to First Nations, should this power also be granted to all municipalities in Canada? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14640508#post14640508](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14640508#post14640508) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/156 "2014-04-08T22:29:11Z")
Attawapiskat, its Chief Teresa Spence (the hunger striker who wasn’t actually going hungry) and her spouse Clayton Kennedy who was the band co-manager, are back in the news. [Kennedy has been busted for theft over and fraud over.](http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/08/clayton-kennedy-former-attawapiskat-co-manager-and-partner-of-chief-theresa-spence-charged-with-fraud/) ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/157 "2014-04-09T02:33:15Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Attawapiskat, its Chief Teresa Spence (the hunger striker who wasn’t actually going hungry) and her spouse Clayton Kennedy who was the band co-manager, are back in the news. > > [Kennedy has been busted for theft over and fraud over.](http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/08/clayton-kennedy-former-attawapiskat-co-manager-and-partner-of-chief-theresa-spence-charged-with-fraud/) In other news, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/158 "2014-04-09T23:22:52Z")
$51,000 cheque. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/159 "2014-04-10T01:09:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The lease payments for the mine are going to the government of Ontario, even though it’s on Attawapiskat land, so that’s not helping the community any. Can they not get jobs in the mining industry? Are there other natural resource industries in the area? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344/160 "2014-04-10T03:54:07Z")
1. The mine is not on Attawapiskat land, it is on Ontario’s Crown Land. 2. The mine makes large financial contributions to Attawapiskat. 3. The mine has donated housing to Attawapiskat. 4. The mine hires people from Attawapiskat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attawapiskat-solutions/605344.md?page=7)