# Attempted Coup in Turkey
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 15, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001 "2016-07-15T20:27:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/81 "2016-07-15T22:46:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Having an amendment passed to declare yourself dictator for life isn’t illegal - assuming it was legally passed. It just goes against the intent of the founders of the nation.
If it can be done constitutionally the military has NO right to interfere. Otherwise you have a military government momentarily tolerating a facade of democracy, not a real democracy.
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### Author:  [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/82 "2016-07-15T22:48:02Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> That “I’m for democracy except when I don’t like the results” attitude that many posters have makes me sick to my stomach.
Referring to Turkey as a democracy, particularly after the last two years, demonstrates a complete unfamiliarity with that country.
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### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/83 "2016-07-15T22:49:07Z")
My point is that the armed forces have no special rights to decide who is and isn’t fit to govern, conceding them even the appearance of such rights is an awful path to take.
If the army can decide such things, why can’t the CIA do so too?, or the FBI? or the fraternal union of police? or the coast guard?.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/84 "2016-07-15T22:51:36Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> If it can be done constitutionally the military has NO right to interfere.
The Enlightenment era (e.g., humanist) philosophy that underlies the structure of our country puts all right in the hands of the people. Government exists to do their bidding. If the government becomes its own, self-entitled entity, then the question of rights becomes moot. The government has no right to rule, regardless of the law. The military has no right to rule by force or otherwise. But, any answer that leads to a restoration of democratic government is completely justified.
Britain had every justification to force taxes on us, legally. But as we had no right to representation, we viewed their rules as having no foundation and their government as being undemocratic. That gave us the right to establish a new government.
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### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/85 "2016-07-15T22:51:39Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> If it can be done constitutionally the military has NO right to interfere. Otherwise you have a military government momentarily tolerating a facade of democracy, not a real democracy.
The Turkish military seems to have better credibility in the protecting democracy department. It’s sad how they have to keep restoring democracy.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/86 "2016-07-15T22:52:13Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> **My point is that the armed forces have no special rights to decide who is and isn’t fit to govern** , conceding them even the appearance of such rights is an awful path to take.
> If the army can decide such things, why can’t the CIA do so too?, or the FBI? or the fraternal union of police? or the coast guard?.
Are you thinking that there’s some sort of force at play that trumps having the most guns and the most people willing to use those guns to kill or hurt other people?
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/87 "2016-07-15T22:52:37Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> I thought you had impeachment and/or the supreme court (by declaring actions of the executive to be illegal).
There is Worcester v Georgia where President Andrew Jackson defied the Supreme Court and invited SCCJ John Marshall to come enforce it.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/88 "2016-07-15T22:52:50Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#):
>
> Referring to Turkey as a democracy, particularly after the last two years, demonstrates a complete unfamiliarity with that country.
What do you think makes the Turkey not a democracy, I am sure you can tell us… complete unfamiliarity…
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/89 "2016-07-15T22:53:43Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#):
>
> Referring to Turkey as a democracy, particularly after the last two years, demonstrates a complete unfamiliarity with that country.
+1
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/90 "2016-07-15T22:55:15Z")
> [@Ramira](#):
>
> What do you think makes the Turkey not a democracy, I am sure you can tell us… complete unfamiliarity…
Or you could tell us what makes it more of a democracy than Putins Russia
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### Author:  [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/91 "2016-07-15T23:01:43Z")
Just checked my passport – by coincidence, I spent the day s in Turkey exactly one year ago today, landing on a flight from Bishkek and boarding a bus to Chisinau.
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### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/92 "2016-07-15T23:03:19Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#):
>
> Referring to Turkey as a democracy, particularly after the last two years, demonstrates a complete unfamiliarity with that country.
That’s for the people of Turkey to decide, not for the armed forces.
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### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/93 "2016-07-15T23:08:08Z")
And here we go again in the eternal pro-coup SDMB merry go round.
If a country whose government the poster does not like is replaced by a coup then it’s good, democracy should not be a dictatorship of the majority and so on, with the inevitable hope that the military in the US would intervene to stop any such horrible thing should it happen there etc.
I still don’t understand why the military should have the right and the power to decide when government is no longer democratic, what makes about 1% of the country’s population so specially gifted that they can decide such things and not for example the country’s teacher’s unions?
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/94 "2016-07-15T23:09:24Z")
> [@madsircool](#):
>
> +1
Oh the support of the mullah of democracy.
> [@madsircool](#):
>
> Or you could tell us what makes it more of a democracy than Putins Russia
Why? You are the one raising the example of the Russia. If you believe it relevant you can discuss the comparisons.
The flaws of the Turkish democracy and the last election of November do not make it a non democracy (nor is to be a fan of Erdogan, who is best to go, but not in a coup).
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### Author:  [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/95 "2016-07-15T23:14:22Z")
AP reporting at least 17 Turkish police officers killed in helicopter attack on police special forces HQ. Coup forces appear to still have complete air superiority in Ankara and Istanbul. On top of this, videos clearly suggest a significant number of civilian casualties.
Edit: Military opening fire on civilians in Istanbul confirmed by AFP news agency.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/96 "2016-07-15T23:14:26Z")
IIRC, Turkey _exists_ because the military overthrew the Ottoman government.
This coup is by no means unique in their history. It isn’t the first and it probably won’t be the last.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/97 "2016-07-15T23:17:42Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> I still don’t understand why the military should have the right and the power to decide when government is no longer democratic, what makes about 1% of the country’s population so specially gifted that they can decide such things and not for example the country’s teacher’s unions?
Nothing. So long as the result is good and the method justified, anything is reasonable. That has nothing to do with the military, pro or con. I’d say that about anything in life.
Do you want some ice cream? Is it perfectly good for you to have ice cream? Yes. Is it justified for you to earn money on your own, to lawfully purchase ice cream? Yes.
Then good.
Do you want to drive a truck through your fellow citizens? Is the result good, if you are able to do so? No.
Stop. Bad.
Do you want to be President? Is it reasonable for you to have that right? Yes. Is it justified for you to murder the current president so you can take his place? No.
Stop. Bad.
Coups and revolutions are, inherently, in a much hazier gray area. But, as said, so long as the method is justified compared to the results, then I have no issue. It could be military, or a group of children with flowers, I have no innate preference. I don’t want to see a dictatorship established, nor do I want a repeat of the French Revolution. And anyone nudging a country away from either of those two ends, in a relatively benign (even if aggressive way), isn’t the worst thing ever.
Until it is. And then I will be against it.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/98 "2016-07-15T23:17:48Z")
It doesn’t look like any major opposition groups or figures are supporting this. How on Earth is it going to work with what seems to be _no_ political support?
> [@Sampsiceramos](#):
>
> Coup forces appear to still have complete air superiority in Ankara and Istanbul.
That might be changing. There are reports that a fighter jet shot down a helicopter supporting the coup over Ankara.
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### Author:  [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/99 "2016-07-15T23:23:03Z")
> [@Frodo](#):
>
> And here we go again in the eternal pro-coup SDMB merry go round.
> If a country whose government the poster does not like is replaced by a coup then it’s good, democracy should not be a dictatorship of the majority and so on, with the inevitable hope that the military in the US would intervene to stop any such horrible thing should it happen there etc.
>
> I still don’t understand why the military should have the right and the power to decide when government is no longer democratic, what makes about 1% of the country’s population so specially gifted that they can decide such things and not for example the country’s teacher’s unions?
Are there situations where it’s ok to use force to overthrow a leader? Say Erdogan declares himself leader for life, suspends all future elections, and refuses to step down? Jails and/or kills journalists and opposition members that speak out against him?
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### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-coup-in-turkey/760001/100 "2016-07-15T23:25:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Nothing. So long as the result is good and the method justified, anything is reasonable. That has nothing to do with the military, pro or con. I’d say that about anything in life.
>
> Do you want some ice cream? Is it perfectly good for you to have ice cream? Yes. Is it justified for you to earn money on your own, to lawfully purchase ice cream? Yes.
>
> Then good.
>
> Do you want to drive a truck through your fellow citizens? Is the result good, if you are able to do so? No.
>
> Stop. Bad.
>
> Do you want to be President? Is it reasonable for you to have that right? Yes. Is it justified for you to murder the current president so you can take his place? No.
>
> Stop. Bad.
>
> Coups and revolutions are, inherently, in a much hazier gray area. But, as said, so long as the method is justified compared to the results, then I have no issue. It could be military, or a group of children with flowers, I have no innate preference. I don’t want to see a dictatorship established, nor do I want a repeat of the French Revolution. And anyone nudging a country away from either of those two ends, in a relatively benign (even if aggressive way), isn’t the worst thing ever.
>
> Until it is. And then I will be against it.
So, if you personally thing the outcome is good, then the means don’t matter?.
To an extent we all think that way (I like to think that I have more respect for democracy than you, but even I would support a coup if I the alternative was the end of life on earth some other species-ending apocalypse).
However, in my mind there is no justification for a military coup in any other circumstance, the very raison d’etre of the military should be to defend the constitution, you don’t defend freedom and democracy by violating the constitution.
We have laws and constitutions for a reason, and when you start ignoring them because the end result is more to your liking you start in the path of dictatorship.
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