# Attempted Murder {of Justice Brett Kavanaugh} **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920 "2022-06-09T14:21:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/1 "2022-06-09T14:21:22Z")
[Nicholas Roske charged with attempting to murder Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nicholas-roske-brett-kavanaugh-attempted-murder/) > A California man who was allegedly armed with a gun, knife and various tools when he was arrested in the early morning near Justice Brett Kavanaugh’s house in Maryland has been charged with attempted murder, federal officials said in court papers filed Wednesday. > U.S. Deputy Marshals reported seeing a person dressed in black clothing and carrying a backpack and suitcase get out of a taxi that stopped in front of a current justice’s house at roughly 1:05 a.m., according to the [affidavit](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.514015/gov.uscourts.mdd.514015.1.1.pdf). The person looked at the two marshals and turned to walk down the street, the FBI agent wrote. > > The Montgomery County Emergency Communications Center then received a call from a person, who identified himself as Roske, saying he was having suicidal thoughts and had a firearm in his suitcase. Roske also said he came from California to kill a “specific United States Supreme Court justice,” according to the filing. I’m curious as to why that counts as attempted murder. I would have thought attempted murder is where a guy tries to actually carry out his attempt but is unsuccessful. Actually _does something which has the potential to kill the guy_ but it doesn’t happen. For example, if he shot at the guy but missed, or put out poison and it didn’t get eaten. In this case, the guy was planning on killing him, but apparently saw the marshals and decided to call it off before actually doing anything that might have killed Kavanaugh. What about if the guy called it off after buying all the stuff and coming to DC but before taking a cab to Kavanaugh’s house? Or perhaps at an even earlier point? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/2 "2022-06-09T14:26:25Z")
Huh. I thought this would be 18 U.S. Code § 1117 - Conspiracy to murder, but that requires a second person involved in the conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/3 "2022-06-09T14:26:46Z")
“Attempts” or “inchoate” crimes are some of the trickiest to define in terms of facts. It will depend on the definition of attempt in the statute, and the application to the facts. I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends with a lesser charge. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/4 "2022-06-09T14:28:56Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Conspiracy to murder, but that requires a second person involved in the conspiracy. Yup. Conspiracy always requires at least two people planning to commit an offence. It’s also a very difficult offence to prove. It’s also an inchoate offence: > **[Inchoate offense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inchoate_offense)** > > An inchoate offense, preliminary crime, inchoate crime or incomplete crime is a crime of preparing for or seeking to commit another crime. The most common example of an inchoate offense is "attempt". "Inchoate offense" has been defined as the following: "Conduct deemed criminal without actual harm being done, provided that the harm that would have occurred is one the law tries to prevent." > Every inchoate crime or offense must have the mens rea of intent or of recklessness, typically intent. Abs... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/5 "2022-06-09T14:37:52Z")
I too have the same question as the OP. I would have thought that, in order to count as attempted murder, the gunman would have at least have had to fire a shot in the target’s direction, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/6 "2022-06-09T14:49:57Z")
That’s why they’re so tricky to prove. Here’s a “what if” : suppose an employee in the Dallas School Book Depository had come across Oswald aiming his rifle out the window and knocked it out of Oswald’s hands before he could fire a shot. Is “aiming with intent” sufficient for “attempt murder”? How early in the chain of events is it sufficient to establish an attempt? It can be very difficult to convince a jury if the chain is stopped early. The better the policing, the harder it becomes to prove the offence. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/7 "2022-06-09T15:21:37Z")
It’s the _Minority Report_ problem. The illusion of free will works perfectly well for most purposes in everyday life, but criminal justice is the major exception. A justice system based on the fiction of free will is fundamentally flawed. Trying to draw a bright line on an “attempt” doesn’t work, just as trying to draw a bright line on “mental disease or defect” to determine culpability doesn’t work. There is no magical sense in which we float above the causal factors that determine our actions, and a justice system based on this fantasy will always have this kind of problem with consistency and coherence. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/8 "2022-06-09T15:25:03Z")
Wild speculation: They intend to charge him with “attempt”, in case he tries to fight it, then get him to plead guilty on “conspiracy”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/9 "2022-06-09T15:27:07Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > get a plea bargain on “conspiracy” I don’t see how that can work, if the key element of conspiracy is absent (no co-conspirator). A judge won’t convict someone of a crime they objectively did not commit, even they agree a plea. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/10 "2022-06-09T15:30:08Z")
I probably got the terms wrong. But the basic idea is to over-charge, to scare him, then get him to plead guilty on a lesser charge. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/11 "2022-06-09T15:33:31Z")
It doesn’t seem to me, either, that “attempted” works here, but it also seems to me that there ought to be some sort of law that would apply. There are a lot of federal laws about “crossing state lines for purposes of…”, because that gives the federal government standing that they might not otherwise have… Maybe something along those lines? And it also seems that there might be some California or Maryland law that might apply, though I’m not sure what those would be. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/12 "2022-06-09T15:40:09Z")
I was surprised by the charge too. The law usually requires some substantial step, beyond mere preparation, for an attempt to occur. I think aiming but not firing should qualify as an attempt; I’d think getting in a cab to go to the location does not. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/13 "2022-06-09T15:45:34Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > The law usually requires some substantial step, beyond mere preparation, for an attempt to occur. Isn’t renunciation a defense? He stopped his attempt. Sure because the cops were going to stop him, but still. JAQ, L&O Law School Graduate ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/14 "2022-06-09T15:47:43Z")
I think the substantial step is (correct me if I’m wrong) traveling across the country with the intent to commit the crime. And then lying in wait (maybe? How close was he?). I’m not sure if renunciation is enough to undo an attempt, or if that only applies to conspiracy (and then only to future acts of wrongdoing, not past). But of course IANAL. It may turn out the feeds have overcharged, but TBD. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/15 "2022-06-09T21:19:53Z")
From Volokh on the subject (of both attempted murder and renunciation): [The “Abandonment” Defense to Criminal Attempt, and the Person Who Was Planning to Kill Justice Kavanaugh (reason.com)](https://reason.com/volokh/2022/06/08/the-abandonment-defense-to-criminal-attempt-and-the-person-who-was-planning-to-kill-justice-kavanaugh/#more-8188869) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/16 "2022-06-09T20:59:00Z")
I’m sure this is the wrong thread, but how did this guy get charged with attempted murder when he called the police on himself before he did anything? I mean, this thread will blow up whenever the actual opinion is released, but in the meantime, maybe you’ll forgive this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/17 "2022-06-09T21:13:58Z")
It’s an interesting question. I’m not sure I can accurately summarize Maryland’s (where Kavanaugh lives, the nutjob was arrested) Attempted Murder statutes/elements, but … [**MD Attempted Murder Statutes**](https://lawofselfdefense.com/jury-instruction/md-mpji-cr-417-14-homicide-attempted-first-degree-murder-attempted-second-degree-murder-and-attempted-voluntary-manslaughter-imperfect-self-defense/) I really don’t know how the arguments - But he _didn’t,_ and - But he changed his mind, _and then_ turned himself in would play out in this case. I can readily see where he meets the necessary elements of Attempted First Degree Murder (otherwise (?)). I’ll try pasting the elements here. If they go beyond Fair Use, then … Mods … por favor … do your thing: > [@](#): > > **ATTEMPTED FIRST DEGREE MURDER** > > Attempted first degree murder is a substantial step, beyond mere preparation, toward the commission of murder in the first degree combined with an intent to commit the crime. In order to convict the defendant of attempted murder in the first degree, the State must prove: > > (1) that the defendant took a substantial step, beyond mere preparation, toward the commission of murder in the first degree; > (2) that the defendant had the apparent ability, at that time, to commit the crime of murder in the first degree; and > (3) that the defendant willfully, and with premeditation and deliberation, intended to kill (name). > > Willful means that the defendant actually intended to kill (name). Deliberate means that the defendant was conscious of the intent to kill. Premeditated means that the defendant thought about the killing and that there was enough time, though it may only have been brief, for the defendant to consider the decision whether or not to kill and enough time to weigh the reasons for and against the choice. > [@](#): > > **ATTEMPTED SECOND DEGREE MURDER** > > Attempted second degree murder is a substantial step, beyond mere preparation, toward the commission of murder in the second degree combined with an intent to commit the crime. In order to convict the defendant of attempted murder in the second degree, the State must prove: > > (1) that the defendant took a substantial step, beyond mere preparation, toward the commission of murder in the second degree; > (2) that the defendant had the apparent ability, at that time, to commit the crime of murder in the second degree; and > (3) that the defendant actually intended to kill (name). ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/18 "2022-06-09T21:25:56Z")
Whoops. There’s a separate thread about this (of course there is). I’ll ask the friendly, helpful mods if they think these couple of posts should live over there: > [@Attempted Murder {of Justice Brett Kavanaugh}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder/965920): > > [Nicholas Roske charged with attempting to murder Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nicholas-roske-brett-kavanaugh-attempted-murder/) A California man who was allegedly armed with a gun, knife and various tools when he was arrested in the early morning near Justice Brett Kavanaugh’s house in Maryland has been charged with attempted murder, federal officials said in court papers filed Wednesday. U.S. Deputy Marshals reported seeing a person dressed in black clothing and carrying a backpack and suitcase get out of a taxi that s… ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/19 "2022-06-09T21:38:04Z")
Multiple personalities don’t count, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920/20 "2022-06-09T21:40:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The illusion of free will works perfectly well for most purposes in everyday life, but criminal justice is the major exception. It’s more a problem with our notions of justice than of free will. If the goal of the justice system is strictly to improve public safety by limiting the interactions between the violent (or potentially violent) and the rest of society, as well as providing disincentives toward acting violently in the first place, then there is no incompatibility with free will or the lack thereof. But on the other hand, if we embrace the common belief that the purpose of justice is to punish those that _deserve_ it in some way–then things become much trickier. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempted-murder-of-justice-brett-kavanaugh/965920.md?page=2)