# Attempts to make safe alternatives to dangerous products that have backfired. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580 "2013-06-09T20:02:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/21 "2013-06-10T14:03:38Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > One article I read said that the original foam that coated the shuttle tanks used Freon or some such ozone-unfriendly or greenhouse gas. As a result, and as a PR move to show that the treaty on chlorofluorocarbons should have no exceptions - they went to a different formula that did not use chlorofluorocarbons. The only downside was that this foam was less reliable and it seems occasionally chunks fell off, but what they hey, no harm done eh? This is what caused the loss of the _Columbia_. Those falling chunks knocked off enough heat-shielding tiles that the shuttle didn’t survive re-entry. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/22 "2013-06-10T14:08:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > One article I read said that the original foam that coated the shuttle tanks used Freon or some such ozone-unfriendly or greenhouse gas. As a result, and as a PR move to show that the treaty on chlorofluorocarbons should have no exceptions - they went to a different formula that did not use chlorofluorocarbons. The only downside was that this foam was less reliable and it seems occasionally chunks fell off, but what they hey, no harm done eh? No harm done indeed. The piece of foam that fell off on Columbia was from a section of foam that was excluded from the EPA mandate, so it was completely unaffected by the removal of CFCs. Environmental concerns did not cause the Columbia accident. [http://sts107.com/kooks%20and%20myths/kooks.htm#EPA](http://sts107.com/kooks%20and%20myths/kooks.htm#EPA) ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/23 "2013-06-10T14:10:57Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > I always wondered why the hell they did that! > > I remember the first shuttle launch. Did it even have foam? I always thought it was just a painted container… I was around 10 and watching it on a black/white, small TV, so I am probably wrong on that. > > But every time I’ve heard something about foam falling off, etc. , I’m always like “just use the old style tanks you idiots!” The first few launches had white paint on the outside of the foam. This was due to thermal concerns, the tank was painted to reject heating from sunlight, but after a few launches they determined the paint wasn’t needed and just flew the tanks unpainted. The tanks require insulating foam on the outside to prevent the buildup of ice on the tank, since chunks of ice falling off the tank would be far, far more dangerous than chunks of foam falling off. Also, the EPA regulations had nothing to do with the Columbia accident. [http://sts107.com/kooks%20and%20myths/kooks.htm#EPA](http://sts107.com/kooks%20and%20myths/kooks.htm#EPA) ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/24 "2013-06-10T14:37:18Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > This is what caused the loss of the _Columbia_. Those falling chunks knocked off enough heat-shielding tiles that the shuttle didn’t survive re-entry. It didn’t knock heat-shielding tiles off. What it did do was [blow a huge, gaping hole in the leading edge of the left wing.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=suniiico7z4#t=91s) > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Well, my issue is with nylon rope. The old fashion hemp ropes did not stretch. 1/2 hour ago I was using my 4WD to pull out a stump with a heavy nylon rope. The stretched rope catapulted the stump through my rear window and into the back of the seat I was sitting on nearly killing me. Per the OP’s question, was nylon rope marketed as a safer alternative to something else? A suggestion: next time you want to pull a stump, use steel chain or cable to avoid a repeat of your situation. Environmentalists have advocated for people to use reusable shopping bags. Hey great, less plastic and paper headed for the landfill, it’s all good, right? Wrong. Studies are now showing that [contamination of reusable bags with bacteria is resulting in an increase of foodborne illness.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-green-bacteria-in-shopping-bags,0,4837500.story) ---
**Author:** ![Orionizer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orionizer/32/4442_2.png) [@Orionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orionizer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/25 "2013-06-10T15:13:40Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The first few launches had white paint on the outside of the foam. This was due to thermal concerns, the tank was painted to reject heating from sunlight, but after a few launches they determined the paint wasn’t needed and just flew the tanks unpainted. The tanks require insulating foam on the outside to prevent the buildup of ice on the tank, since chunks of ice falling off the tank would be far, far more dangerous than chunks of foam falling off. Thanks for educating me on that! I had no idea. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/26 "2013-06-10T15:52:00Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Environmentalists have advocated for people to use reusable shopping bags. Hey great, less plastic and paper headed for the landfill, it’s all good, right? Wrong. Studies are now showing that [contamination of reusable bags with bacteria is resulting in an increase of foodborne illness.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-green-bacteria-in-shopping-bags,0,4837500.story) that’s not the fault of the reusable bag. if the shopper cleans the bag then there isn’t the problem. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/27 "2013-06-10T15:52:07Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Except that one of the first materials they used to make the filters out of was- > … > _Asbestos!_ Oops! Did this actually cause health problems? I’d imagine that the amount of filter material inhaled is negligible. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/28 "2013-06-10T15:59:10Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Did this actually cause health problems? I’d imagine that the amount of filter material inhaled is negligible. I know at one point researchers realized that women smokers were getting more of a certain subtype of lung cancer than men - one not associated with tobacco chemicals, but with particles from filters. It was hypothesized that our generally longer fingernails, paired with a tendency for some smokers to “ash” their cigarette by dragging a fingernail along the filter end (as opposed to tapping the side of the cigarette) might be loosening the filter fibers and allowing more of them to be inhaled than the manufacturers anticipated. Not sure if the hypothesis still stands or not. But I sure became self-conscious of my ashing technique after reading that! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/29 "2013-06-10T16:11:09Z")
One example given in the [Wikipedia article on unintended consequences](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences) (which is what this sort of thing is generally called) is that in the Australian state of Victoria, the government mandated bicycle helmets. However, kids viewed them as uncool, so they ride less, and therefore get less exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/30 "2013-06-10T16:31:43Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The first few launches had white paint on the outside of the foam. This was due to thermal concerns, the tank was painted to reject heating from sunlight, but after a few launches they determined the paint wasn’t needed and just flew the tanks unpainted. Actually according to [this source](http://www.space.com/2282-columbias-white-external-fuel-tanks.html) (which quotes the external tank program manager), the white paint was not to protect against solar heating while fueled; rather, it was to protect the foam against UV damage while the assembled vehicle was parked on the launch pad for extended periods. Skipping the paint saved 600 pounds of weight. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/31 "2013-06-10T17:37:07Z")
A classic problem is the occasional safety device that does not actually improve safety, but makes things worse, or introduces a new problem. Such was recently discussed on this board – introduction of the front passenger airbag, being dangerous to infants in the front seat, resulted in infant car seats being moved to the back – where a small number of them get overlooked and forgotten, leaving a few children each year to die in overheated parked vehicles. Going from memory, another example occurred at Three Mile Island. One of the enormous bank of controls, dials, and switches had a tag containing critical information…that hung down over a warning light, obscuring it from view. That may have been moot anyway, as some large number of alarms and warning lights were going off at the same time (my memory says “90” alarms and lights triggered, but I can’t source that at the moment). Anyway, most of those warnings and alarms were minor, but the enormous number of them saturated the responders with information at a time when they needed to focus on only a few key processes. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/32 "2013-06-10T18:55:26Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Honorable mention must go to the [Davy Crockett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29), a shoulder-mounted nuclear rocket. Such a pity the blast radius was greater than its range… That’s just not true. With a small weapon like the 20 ton W54, the real threat was the prompt radiation, which for small weapons outstrips the heat and blast. (really big ones are mostly heat and blast, with the prompt radiation not being an issue). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/33 "2013-06-10T19:48:28Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > A classic problem is the occasional safety device that does not actually improve safety, but makes things worse, or introduces a new problem. Sometimes I think 98% of child safety devices fall into this category. Outlet covers and doorknob covers and toilet seat latches and cabinet locks and drawer locks and cushions for the edge of the coffee table and and and… At some point, I think over-babyproofing leaves parents with a false sense of security, and reduces their direct awareness and supervision of their kids. And it’s astounding how hellbent some toddlers are on killing themselves. They will find ways you and the babyproofers never dreamed of to risk their life and limb. Nothing replaces an attentive caregiver. Not sure if there are any actual studies to back me up, mind, just a sense I have of the world that may or may not be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/34 "2013-06-10T19:52:52Z")
There is constant debate about how safety devices make the user act more recklessly, and end up causing more injuries or deaths - e.g. motorcycle helmets. It’s extremely hard to prove it conclusively though. And it doesn’t help that these arguments usually come from people who are opposed to those safety devices for idealistic or personal reasons. (And please, let’s not have that debate here, at least take it to GD if you must.) ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/35 "2013-06-10T21:44:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Sometimes I think 98% of child safety devices fall into this category. Outlet covers and doorknob covers and toilet seat latches and cabinet locks and drawer locks and cushions for the edge of the coffee table and and and… > > At some point, I think over-babyproofing leaves parents with a false sense of security, and reduces their direct awareness and supervision of their kids. And it’s astounding how hellbent some toddlers are on killing themselves. They will find ways you and the babyproofers never dreamed of to risk their life and limb. Nothing replaces an attentive caregiver. > > Not sure if there are any actual studies to back me up, mind, just a sense I have of the world that may or may not be accurate. No studies, just anecdote. My younger daughter gave herself a gash on the forehead when she was a toddler by falling into the corner of a table. I was about a foot away from her at the time. These things can happen SO fast. When my granddaughter was approaching that stage, I bought a very nice set of padding for the edges of her parents’ coffee table. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/36 "2013-06-10T21:51:02Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > There is constant debate about how safety devices make the user act more recklessly, and end up causing more injuries or deaths - e.g. motorcycle helmets. It’s extremely hard to prove it conclusively though. And it doesn’t help that these arguments usually come from people who are opposed to those safety devices for idealistic or personal reasons. > > (And please, let’s not have that debate here, at least take it to GD if you must.) I spoke to a Ford engineer who proposed (I think it’s an old idea) that the best safety addition to a car would be exposed razor blades affixed to the dashboard. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/37 "2013-06-10T21:53:01Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > What was that supposed to be a safer alternative to? Fighting the Commies hand to hand? Nuclear hand grenades. “1. Pull pin. 2. Release spoon. 3. Throw at least 3,500 meters.” ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/38 "2013-06-10T23:57:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One example given in the [Wikipedia article on unintended consequences](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences) (which is what this sort of thing is generally called) is that in the Australian state of Victoria, the government mandated bicycle helmets. However, kids viewed them as uncool, so they ride less, and therefore get less exercise. I don’t know how true that is these days but back when the bike helmet laws were first being introduced the [Stackhat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stackhat) was the helmet promoted by the various state governments as the first to meet the new safety standards. The kids did have a valid point 🙂 (my parents got me one and it was bloody uncomfortable and hot as hell during summer. I only wore it until I was out of sight). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/39 "2013-06-11T16:35:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Sometimes I think 98% of child safety devices fall into this category. Outlet covers and doorknob covers and toilet seat latches and cabinet locks and drawer locks and cushions for the edge of the coffee table and and and… > > At some point, I think over-babyproofing leaves parents with a false sense of security, and reduces their direct awareness and supervision of their kids. And it’s astounding how hellbent some toddlers are on killing themselves. They will find ways you and the babyproofers never dreamed of to risk their life and limb. Nothing replaces an attentive caregiver. > > Not sure if there are any actual studies to back me up, mind, just a sense I have of the world that may or may not be accurate. I want to point out that the toilet latch is to protect the Kindle, not the baby. But I do agree that a false sense of security is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580/40 "2013-06-11T16:49:06Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I spoke to a Ford engineer who proposed (I think it’s an old idea) that the best safety addition to a car would be exposed razor blades affixed to the dashboard. That seems to have been the design philosophy of all school buses I rode as a kid. (Huge, thick steel bars right in front of the kid’s face where, in a sudden stop, they’re guaranteed to ram their foreheads into them.) In my high school years they started putting padding on the backs of the seats. Kids these days, so coddled. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attempts-to-make-safe-alternatives-to-dangerous-products-that-have-backfired/660580.md?page=3)