# Attention anti health-care reformers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745 "2009-11-08T00:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/201 "2009-11-12T03:13:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You aren’t very smart, are you? You don’t appear to have much a sense of humour for someone who lives by sucking the sweet, sweet milk of social services. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/202 "2009-11-12T04:16:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You don’t appear to have much a sense of humour for someone who lives by sucking the sweet, sweet milk of social services. Of course not. There are millions of layabouts stealing HER unearned loot! Would you sit by quietly and let that happen? Hell no! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/203 "2009-11-12T07:13:20Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’m not American. I don’t think I want it, I have it. I like it. I I was expressing my happiness that someone who _is not you_ wouldn’t be coming back to support his nonsense. When you post on a public board, you need to expect that others may respond to what you say. As for you “having it”, no matter where you live you do not have what is being proposed in the States. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’m led to believe she does not work, but suckles off the public teat. “Not working” does not equal “suckles off the public teat”. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > You only pay an infinitesimal portion of the money spent building the roads you use. how is this not having someone else pay your way in life, literally? Do you _really_ think this is the same thing as a UHC? The roads are necessary to support society on many levels, from getting you to work, thru trucks making deliveries, to getting emergency vehicles to fires, etc. There is also nothing available privately that even approaches being cost effective that could do the work of creating and maintaining roadways. Comparing that to a government healthcare system, when we have private insurance available, with a government with a bad record for being able to handle healthcare already, and a society with a good sized section that cannot be bothered to be responsible for themselves - it doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > and the land hypo is actually very apt: healthcare is a debate precisely because its current affordability is out of the reach of most wage earners This is only true if you use “wage earners” to mean those who are working for hourly pay rather than salaries. Meaning you are talking about those people who are working for minimum wage or a bit more. If so, why is it that you think people should build their futures on such jobs? When did it happen that working at McDonalds, usually part time, is a legitimate way to support oneself, not to mention a spouse and kid(s)? > [@](#): > > in this country (and most people think healthcare is a good closer to water and housing than a drop-top bentley on the spectrum of “basic shit you need to have lead a decent life”). i bring up high land costs to see if you would still be a smug, smirking douchebag if 50% of your fellow members of society were unable to afford housing at prevailing wages? what about clean water? A smug smirking douchebag because I don’t agree with you, or just because this is the Pit? Whatever. Well over 50% of my fellow members of society seem to be able to afford all sorts of things that are not on the level of “basic shit you need to have lead a decent life”, that is until they have an emergency and their house of cards falls down. Why do you support requiring that these people be even less responsible for themselves? > [@](#): > > we could probably afford it if we didn’t have to pay for the military to go on these “our dicks are bigger than yours” offensive wars that your ilk are so fond of. You obviously have no idea what ilk I am, since I would much rather we never interfered in another country’s business, and I don’t have a dick. Yes, we probably could afford to offer free healthcare to everyone if we weren’t spending so much on the military and useless wars, but do you realistically think that is going to happen? > [@](#): > > but, of course, why listen to reasoned analysis. tax burdens in canada are not that much greater than they are in the US. the money you (well, apparently not you) spend on private health insurance, I spend money on private health insurance every month, as well as co-pays, deductibles and drug expenses. > [@](#): > > and the money the government hemorrhages in the form of tax breaks to private insurance (via tax deductions to the employer’s part of HI), if you took that and turned it towards a government-run program, while i don’t have the exact numbers, can’t be exactly that far off the current costs of healthcare. Uh huh. Because you like the idea of cheap healthcare, you are sure we can afford it. Gee, I wonder why it is that we are so deeply in debt… > [@](#): > > and i can’t explain anything about braces because that was the most unintelligible thing i have read in the past 48 hours. It was obviously an example of the idiotic things that people think they “need” to have, when they cannot afford to pay for it. I will not be at all surprised if braces are included in the UHC, despite their cost and lack of necessity - I note you jumped right over the other things that are commonly covered by insurance that are not necessary to keep folks healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/204 "2009-11-12T13:34:06Z")
And I was afraid this thread \*wasn’t \*going to reach 20 pages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/205 "2009-11-12T13:38:20Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > When you post on a public board, you need to expect that others may respond to what you say. But I don’t have to take them seriously or pretend their opinions have merit. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/206 "2009-11-12T13:46:47Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And I was afraid this thread \*wasn’t \*going to reach 20 pages. This thread’s been curlcoated by the curlcoat. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/207 "2009-11-12T14:32:46Z")
A little body waxing could help with that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/208 "2009-11-12T14:57:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do you _really_ think this is the same thing as a UHC? The roads are necessary to support society on many levels, from getting you to work, thru trucks making deliveries, to getting emergency vehicles to fires, etc. There is also nothing available privately that even approaches being cost effective that could do the work of creating and maintaining roadways. > > Comparing that to a government healthcare system, when we have private insurance available, with a government with a bad record for being able to handle healthcare already, and a society with a good sized section that cannot be bothered to be responsible for themselves - it doesn’t work. In defense of curlcoat, I live in PA and our roads are an abomination. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/209 "2009-11-12T15:18:15Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Hehehe. My source of information about health-care reform comes from watching the news on TV or listening to it on the radio. I have not heard anything about fixing Medicare being part of any bills being considered, or the one that passed the house. > > Congress may very well have language about it in one or more of their bills, but I haven’t heard it mentioned in the news. Sorry I’m getting behind the conversation here. Where are my Pit manners?!? I read an article ‘[Inside the Obamacare Laboratory](http://www.tnr.com/article/health-care/mass-appeal)’. The gist is that national health care reform would look pretty much like what has already been done in Massachusetts: > [@](#): > > Almost three years ago, the state introduced an ambitious initiative designed to make sure nearly all residents have health insurance. Under this scheme, the state requires employers to contribute toward the cost of covering workers, while requiring individuals to get insurance. It sets up regulated marketplaces, through which individuals and small businesses can obtain insurance, and it forbids insurers from denying coverage, or charging higher rates, because of preexisting conditions. Note that it isn’t about Medicare, just UHC as practiced in the US. Thought you might like the info. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/210 "2009-11-12T15:29:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > :rolleyes: > No, what I’m saying is that THAT IS WHY a lot of these programs are _going_ bankrupt – the government has been borrowing from Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security funds to pay for other projects. (Mind you, this started with George H. W. Bush - NOT his son) > > [Cite](http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE2/budget.html) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/211 "2009-11-12T17:42:28Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sorry I’m getting behind the conversation here. Where are my Pit manners?!? > > I read an article ‘[Inside the Obamacare Laboratory](http://www.tnr.com/article/health-care/mass-appeal)’. The gist is that national health care reform would look pretty much like what has already been done in Massachusetts: > > Note that it isn’t about Medicare, just UHC as practiced in the US. Thought you might like the info. On the previous page you mentioned how Medicare is said to be losing money and asked if it’s because an unexpected amount of baby boomers are cashing in. I said that the creators of social security should have foreseen that and then you asked if UHC was trying to fix that and I replied that I don’t know. You said it wasn’t a satisfying answer so I replied that I haven’t heard it mentioned in the news. Wow, that was a mouthful. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/212 "2009-11-12T18:15:28Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This is only true if you use “wage earners” to mean those who are working for hourly pay rather than salaries. Meaning you are talking about those people who are working for minimum wage or a bit more. If so, why is it that you think people should build their futures on such jobs? When did it happen that working at McDonalds, usually part time, is a legitimate way to support oneself, not to mention a spouse and kid(s)? I’m a part time minimum wage earner. That’s the only job I can find at the moment, you heartless bitch. I’m trying to work my way through community college, and you feel I should be condemned to bankrupcy if I get the temerity to get sick. Somehow I’m less deserving of health care than you, who doesn’t even work! These are real human beings you’re talking about, not caricatured abstractions. Should the penalty for failing to be economicly successful be death? 45,000 of our citizens die every year because of people like you who fight tooth and nail against UHC. You’re a bad person. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/213 "2009-11-12T18:39:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **The Tooth** > > So you’re not going to explain why our ineffectual, lazy (?) health care system keeps us going just fine? You’re not going to come back and tell me I’m too naive and stupid to understand that not being bankrupted by emergency surgery (a splenectomy, not a hypothetical) is a good thing? > > > > Good. > > Go back and read the whole post - he did explain to you, that he doesn’t think that current healthcare is working, and that the “solution” \*\*you all think you want \*\*will be ineffectual. Did you not understand what he meant by “I’d rather see tort reform, the separation of insurance from employment, tax-free HSA’s, and the ability to buy coverage across state lines or from Timbuktu if that’s what worked out best for me.”? > > As for your not being bankrupted by emergency surgery, I still haven’t figured out why it is that so many people _expect and demand_ that someone else pay their way in this life. Uhh, you are aware that **The Tooth** is Canadian, right? So, it’s not really accurate to characterize it as “the ‘solution’ he thinks he wants.” It’s the solution he already has, and he seems to find it rather effectual. As for “not being bankrupted by emergency surgery,” I’ve never actually been in bankruptcy, but am I wrong in supposing that such a condition renders a person less able to effectively to contribute to society as a whole (including contributions that you _don’t_ disapprove of on principle)? Perhaps that outcome is a “greater evil” than the possibility that some people might not meet your standard of “[paying their own way] in this life.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/214 "2009-11-12T18:57:47Z")
**Blalron** , why do you think you should get the same level of health care as the deserving? The Free Market, blessed be its Name, has rendered its judgement, and you are found wanting. Perhaps if you had not been corrupted by the nanny state to surrender your rugged individualism and self-reliance, things might not have come to such a state! Nonetheless, there are options available for those who will seek them out. I don’t know your location, but no doubt there is at least one Christian Science outlet in your vicinity, where you can apply for prayer therapy by accredited therapists. And, there is no deductible! Not to mention that most homeopathic practitioners have very low fee schedules. And, of course, in the final analysis, a rough pine box is affordable even to the meanest budget, and, failing that, particle board or recycled cardboard is even more attractive for the budget minded! And, really, its not like you’re going to notice the difference… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/215 "2009-11-13T02:02:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And, of course, in the final analysis, a rough pine box is affordable even to the meanest budget, and, failing that, particle board or recycled cardboard is even more attractive for the budget minded! And, really, its not like you’re going to notice the difference… Too much effort to waste on the proles. A sack and a shovelful of quicklime for afters, just like the good old days! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/216 "2009-11-13T02:13:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > “Not working” does not equal “suckles off the public teat”. It is when you’re on Social Security disability, sweetcheeks. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/217 "2009-11-13T04:05:55Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > On the previous page you mentioned how Medicare is said to be losing money and asked if it’s because an unexpected amount of baby boomers are cashing in. I said that the creators of social security should have foreseen that and then you asked if UHC was trying to fix that and I replied that I don’t know. You said it wasn’t a satisfying answer so I replied that I haven’t heard it mentioned in the news. > > Wow, that was a mouthful. Yah, the issue is a nice mess for us plebs to try to sort out, no? Well, as for why SS and Medicare are going bankrupt, check out the article I thanked Guinistasia for. You’re darn right the government could predict it would go bankrupt, because they’ve been raiding the goddamn things for hundreds of billions of $! So… sort of government incompetence after all, but probably not the kind you initially meant. Oh, and I better point out that it was mostly the pubbies’ doing. Because, as you know, they are poo-poo heads. So I gave you another link to give you a picture of what UHC would look like. Still leaves a question mark about whether UHC lowers Medicare costs… And then there is the ‘theory’ side of it, and the ‘are the thieving bastards going to find a new way to fuck it up?’ side of it. Are we on the same page now? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/218 "2009-11-13T04:25:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Yah, the issue is a nice mess for us plebs to try to sort out, no? > Well, as for why SS and Medicare are going bankrupt, check out the article I thanked Guinistasia for. You’re darn right the government could predict it would go bankrupt, because they’ve been raiding the goddamn things for hundreds of billions of $! So… sort of government incompetence after all, but probably not the kind you initially meant. Oh, and I better point out that it was mostly the pubbies’ doing. Because, as you know, they are poo-poo heads. > > So I gave you another link to give you a picture of what UHC would look like. Still leaves a question mark about whether UHC lowers Medicare costs… And then there is the ‘theory’ side of it, and the ‘are the thieving bastards going to find a new way to fuck it up?’ side of it. > Are we on the same page now? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/219 "2009-11-13T04:41:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And, of course, in the final analysis, a rough pine box is affordable even to the meanest budget, and, failing that, particle board or recycled cardboard is even more attractive for the budget minded! And, really, its not like you’re going to notice the difference… “I can give you a rental casket.” “…Who brought it back?” ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/220 "2009-11-13T04:56:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It is when you’re on Social Security disability, sweetcheeks. When was the last time you held a job, bitchcakes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=12)