# Attention anti health-care reformers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745 "2009-11-08T00:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/261 "2009-11-14T04:45:40Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So she “cares” about us as people, 308 million of us, most (all?) of which she has never met, a half a world away. > > That’s odd, and more than a little creepy. Creepy? If someone gave you flowers, you’d shove em down the garbage disposal just to be on the safe side, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/262 "2009-11-14T04:48:32Z")
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, "that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellowmen, and travel far and wide… \ “Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of incessant labour, by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed. Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh! such was I!” \ “Business!” cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. “Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!” \ “At this time of the rolling year,” the spectre said “I suffer most. Why did I walk through crowds of fellow-beings with my eyes turned down, and never raise them to that blessed Star which led the Wise Men to a poor abode! Were there no poor homes to which its light would have conducted me!” ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/263 "2009-11-14T11:40:25Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So she “cares” about us as people, 308 million of us, most (all?) of which she has never met, a half a world away. > > That’s odd, and more than a little creepy. > > That, or it’s just RO on her part. RO? No, I don’t think so. It’s more that I find it extremely odd that while the rest of the developed world has managed to live pretty comfortably with their various UHS’s, there are some in the US who are being wilfully obtuse about even entertaining the very _idea_. Methinks that speaks more voluminously about you than it does _my_ motives dear. I care that many people in your great country are unable to access even basic medical treatment whilst for those of us who have embraced a UHS, such a scenario is non-existent. Sure, there are always shortcomings and flaws in the system, but I know that if I have an accident, a heart attack, a plantar wart or a fit of depression, the med system will be there to help me through, at no cost. I pay my Medicare dues, and I reap the benefits. I see such a system as, y’know, **normal** , just like I view democracy nowadays. I couldn’t imagine living any way else, and I can’t imagine _why_ you would have objections to it. Oh, FTR, that was the generic _you_ in the latter part of the paragraph above. As far as **Carol Stream** is concerned, I really don’t give a flying fuck. I hope her insurance continues to provide the coverage she needs, but I also pray that she develops a really nasty dose of the clap…tertiary syphyllis, so that it turns out to be a pre-existing condition! Hehe. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/264 "2009-11-14T17:50:29Z")
For some people, their objection to any form of UHC stems from motivated self interest. This would be the case if they fear that their jobs as useless middle manager pushers of paper and/or deniers of claims would be in jeopardy if a more efficient system were put in place. I’m sure the makers of horse drawn buggies were all up in arms about how the automobile was inefficient, terrible, and would lead to the destruction of civilization. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/265 "2009-11-14T18:17:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So your story, and you’re sticking to it, is that the Democratic plan will actually shave the debt, not add to it. Based on Ezra’s blog in the American Prospect/Post… > > is that right? > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33214558/ns/politics-health\_care\_reform](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33214558/ns/politics-health_care_reform) Yo sparky, there is a difference between the debt and the deficit, and as an aside, you’re cite says the same thing as Ezra’s blog, which makes sense since both cites are using CBO projections as their source. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/266 "2009-11-14T18:58:06Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Yet you seem to be perfectly able to post on this messageboard with alarming regularity. :dubious: You know, every time one of you says something like this, you are just showing how ignorant you are. Do you think that being disabled means we must be confined to bed, unable to do anything at all? And post with “alarming regularity?” (as if it takes any physical strength to sit at a computer…). Before this thread, the last time I posted was 10/24. You alarm easily. > [@](#): > > Hey, curlcoat…I’ve got a job for you. I’m a telemarketer who works from home, sitting in front of my computer and not having to move for hours and hours at a time…should be right up your alley eh? A telemarketer huh. No wonder you don’t seem to be able to understand the term “regularity”. Sorry, I am unable to sit for hours and hours at a time, which you would have a clue about if you had bothered to look at my posting history. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Especially when they’re laid off. Or if they are “unable to work”. They can get affordable medical insurance right? Even with pre-existing conditions? You were claiming that people with pre-existing conditions _cannot_ get insurance, and I pointed out that isn’t true. I am well aware that if they cannot get employer sponsored insurance that it is likely they will have a lot of trouble getting any at all. However, we do not need a UHC to deal with that - the laws have already changed requiring that insurance companies take those with pre-ex in employer plans, it could be changed to require they take all. Or, Medicaid could be extended to those with pre-ex. > [@](#): > > But then that would probably be their own damn fault, for not having the foresight and planning to marry someone with money. I had group insurance while I was still living at the poverty level, so marriage and/or money has little to do with it. Now, if someone just blithers off into the world with their pre-ex and doesn’t plan ahead, that would certainly be their own damn fault, yes? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Similarly, we are always startled when people who don’t have jobs complain about other people not having jobs. I don’t believe that I have ever complained about people not having jobs. > [@](#): > > Why didn’t you purchase private disability insurance? Why are we paying you to do nothing? I did, and you aren’t. Continuing to state something doesn’t make it suddenly a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/267 "2009-11-14T19:10:21Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You know, every time one of you says something like this, you are just showing how ignorant you are. Do you think that being disabled means we must be confined to bed, unable to do anything at all? And post with “alarming regularity?” (as if it takes any physical strength to sit at a computer…). Before this thread, the last time I posted was 10/24. You alarm easily. > > A telemarketer huh. No wonder you don’t seem to be able to understand the term “regularity”. Sorry, I am unable to sit for hours and hours at a time, which you would have a clue about if you had bothered to look at my posting history. > > You were claiming that people with pre-existing conditions _cannot_ get insurance, and I pointed out that isn’t true. I am well aware that if they cannot get employer sponsored insurance that it is likely they will have a lot of trouble getting any at all. However, we do not need a UHC to deal with that - the laws have already changed requiring that insurance companies take those with pre-ex in employer plans, it could be changed to require they take all. Or, Medicaid could be extended to those with pre-ex. > > I had group insurance while I was still living at the poverty level, so marriage and/or money has little to do with it. Now, if someone just blithers off into the world with their pre-ex and doesn’t plan ahead, that would certainly be their own damn fault, yes? > > I don’t believe that I have ever complained about people not having jobs. > > I did, and you aren’t. Continuing to state something doesn’t make it suddenly a fact. Jesus, you’re a stupid bitch. 😃 Hasn’t it been pointed out to you that insurance isn’t affordable to some people, due to no fault of their own? Ah forget it, you’re too stupid to learn. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/268 "2009-11-14T19:10:58Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Keep up the _ad hominem_ attacks! They really bolster your case against better insurance. They really do! The ad hominem’s are the endgame, not the opening game, or even the middle game. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/269 "2009-11-14T19:29:24Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I did, and you aren’t. Continuing to state something doesn’t make it suddenly a fact. Don’t you get some sort of Gov’t check? If so, shut the fuck up, ya leech. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/270 "2009-11-14T21:04:07Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > When was the last time you held a job, bitchcakes? Less than a year ago, twatrag. Now go the fuck away from me. [sub]Poor, poor Carol. She doesn’t seem to be able to try anything new, does she? She’s like a broken record. I only wish my menstrual cycle could be as regular as she is[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/271 "2009-11-14T21:48:23Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am well aware that if they cannot get employer sponsored insurance that it is likely they will have a lot of trouble getting any at all. However, we do not need a UHC to deal with that - the laws have already changed requiring that insurance companies take those with pre-ex in employer plans, it could be changed to require they take all. do you know how those laws work, precisely? IIRC, the only way the government “gets away with” forcing employer-sponsored plans to cover pre-existing conditions is that they will not grant a tax deduction to employers who carry plans which do impose pre-existing conditions. this is hugely different than mandating, not incentivizing, a private insurance company be forced to take all insured. and, again, it has been pointed out that this will create even worse incentives for people to be uninsured until they get sick. having a health system where no one cares for preventive medicine at all because they can get insured at the drop of a hat when shit goes wrong is not wise. > [@](#): > > Or, Medicaid could be extended to those with pre-ex. typically, you have to be basically bankrupt to get medicaid. that’s a great solution, you’ve sumbled upon - surrender all of your assets to stay alive! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/272 "2009-11-14T22:02:51Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Yo sparky, there is a difference between the debt and the deficit, and as an aside, you’re cite says the same thing as Ezra’s blog, which makes sense since both cites are using CBO projections as their source. No offense bro, but when we’re running a deficit already, then every extra dollar gets added to the debt (actually, it’s higher, since there’s service on the debt, ie interest expense). I thought people on this board were sharp, perhaps I’ll spell it out next time. So my point was, from my original quote, that the person I was quoting said that there was NOTHING that they didn’t like about the healthcare reform being bandied about in Congress by the Democrats. I suggested that a $1t price tag might be a tough pill to swallow for our kids; on top of all the other reckless spending we’re doing now. If economics and the probable disastrous impact of federal deficit spending is beyond your grasp, then perhaps you’d do us a favor and pipe down? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/273 "2009-11-14T22:03:33Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So she “cares” about us as people, 308 million of us, most (all?) of which she has never met, a half a world away. > > That’s odd, and more than a little creepy. Ahh yes, I suppose caring would be creepy to a selfish mindset. I guess if people in Australia lived poverty you wouldn’t bat an eye. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/274 "2009-11-14T22:21:49Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I think so. Whoa, that really threw me off. Aren’t you going to call me a cunt or bitchcakes or something 😕 Just kidding. On the topic of reducing Medicare costs, check out this article: > [@](#): > > Govt: Medicare paid $47 billion in suspect claims > > Obama is expected to announce new initiatives next week to help crack down on Medicare fraud, including a government-wide Web site aimed at providing a fuller account of health care spending and improper payments made by various agencies. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services also will launch a Web interactive next month that will allow users to track Medicare payment information by categories such as state, diagnosis and hospital. > > \_In the Medicaid program for the poor, roughly $18.1 billion, or 9.6 percent of claims, are believed to be improper payments. > > \_Using a baseline of 12.4 percent in improper payments in the Medicare fee for service program, HHS is setting targets of reducing fraud and waste to 9.5 percent, 8.5 percent, and 8.0 percent, respectively, for fiscal years 2010 through 2012. This appears to be entirely separate from UHC though, to carry on the tradition of responding with a related though slightly off-target bit of information. btw- the article also states that the Bush Administration wildly underestimated the level of Medicare fraud. Why? 'cause pubbies are poo-poo heads 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/275 "2009-11-14T22:41:24Z")
FWIW, I am NOT saying I begrudge **curlcoat** using government resources – that’s what they’re there for. Nor do I think it’s wrong for her to be on disability, if she needs it. What DOES piss me off is that she seems to think that her case is somehow “different”, and belittles the idea of anyone else getting government aid. The idea of being against UHC, when you are already getting aid from the government seems contradictory at best, and downright fucking hypocritical at worst. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/276 "2009-11-15T00:02:33Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > RO? No, I don’t think so. It’s the very definition of RO. It doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever, but you’re all hepped up about it in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/277 "2009-11-15T00:29:09Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Whoa, that really threw me off. Aren’t you going to call me a cunt or bitchcakes or something 😕 > > Just kidding. I know. This is the Pit, what’s wrong with me? > [@](#): > > On the topic of reducing Medicare costs, check out this article: > This appears to be entirely separate from UHC though, to carry on the tradition of responding with a related though slightly off-target bit of information. Hell, once we get reform and government is involved in everybody’s health-care in some way, shape, or form, and it will happen, regardless of what anybody thinks, why have government run health-care for seniors and disabled people (SSI and SSD) and government run health-care for the rest of us (public option, forcing private insurance companies to sell to people with pre-existing conditions and not dropping people for using their insurance too much, and forcing people to buy insurance or get penalized)? Why not have seniors who can afford it buy into private insurance or the public option, and subsidize those who can’t afford it, and then we could do away with Social Security altogether. It would simplify things, having one plan to cover everybody instead of one plan for seniors and disabled people and another for everybody else, and with a larger pool of people paying into it, it would probably be more solvent, and finally, don’t allow Congress or the President to “borrow” from the public option. Of course I am not an financial, health, or government expert, and my ideas could be full of shit, but what the hell, I’m putting them out there anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/278 "2009-11-15T00:31:47Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > It’s the very definition of RO. It doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever, but you’re all hepped up about it in the Pit. OK, I’ll concede that. Dunno about the hepped up bit though, I thought I was being the very epitome of calm and reason…just goes to show you that how others view us is not always the way we think we are coming across. 😃 But anyway, regardless of whether it is RO or not, there are lots of things that have happened and still happen in this world that cause me concern, and sometimes drive me to anger and tears. Most of them have no direct impact upon MY life or well being, but do indeed affect me because I share kinship with every person on this planet. Just to give an example or two: \*I am not of Jewish heritage, but the events around WW2 and the Holocaust continue to cause me upset. \*I am not an Australian Aborigine but I am most angry that many of them (particularly in remote areas) continue to live in Third World conditions despite Australia being one of the most economically successful countries in the world. What you display though Carol, is what is known here as the ‘I’m alright Jack’ syndrome: provided your needs are catered for, everyone else can go fuck 'emselves. At it’s extreme, it is known as sociopathy. Me, I’ll stick to being Recreationally Outraged when I feel the need. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/279 "2009-11-15T00:33:40Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > snip > You were claiming that people with pre-existing conditions _cannot_ get insurance, and I pointed out that isn’t true. I am well aware that if they cannot get employer sponsored insurance that it is likely they will have a lot of trouble getting any at all. However, we do not need a UHC to deal with that - the laws have already changed requiring that insurance companies take those with pre-ex in employer plans, it could be changed to require they take all. Or, Medicaid could be extended to those with pre-ex. > snip > I had group insurance while I was still living at the poverty level, so marriage and/or money has little to do with it. Now, if someone just blithers off into the world with their pre-ex and doesn’t plan ahead, that would certainly be their own damn fault, yes? > > snip. Sure enough–it’s their own damn fault if they were raped: > **[Chris Turner: Rape Called A "Pre-Existing Condition" By Woman's Insurance...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/insurance-companies-rape_n_328708)** > > Chris Turner: Rape Called A "Pre-Existing Condition" By Woman's Insurance Company Extend Medicaid? That’s extending a government program, which I thought you didn’t care for. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26664727/ns/health-health\_care/page/2/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26664727/ns/health-health_care/page/2/) 29 states have a pool for those who need coverage: [GoInsuranceRates.com is for sale | HugeDomains](http://www.goinsurancerates.com/health-insurance/denied-health-insurance-coverage/) That also means quite a few states don’t. And in order to get yourself covered, you’d have to pay out much, much more. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/280 "2009-11-15T00:46:43Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Me, I’ll stick to being Recreationally Outraged when I feel the need. > > 😛 Too bad you can’t keep it to MPSIMS, then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=15)