# Attention anti health-care reformers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745 "2009-11-08T00:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/301 "2009-11-15T04:25:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why are the insurance companies against this? They don’t want me anyway! because they’re afraid that SOCIALIZED insurance offered by the SOCIALIST government would be attractive to people. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/302 "2009-11-15T04:25:26Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Do the Canadian, British, Swedish, etc. systems require the purchase of insurance, and the forced sale of same? Yes, actually. Germany, The Netherlands, Switzerland, for example. The reason the proposed systems for the U.S. have mandatory insurance is because people like you think the U.S. sucks and we’re too stupid to have civilised health care. Personally, I think we’re better than that and we can do what we need to. But you ‘OMG! We’ll be North Korea’ types would rather destroy the country than make us stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/303 "2009-11-15T04:36:55Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > in canada they do > > you can’t opt out because there is no private delivery of healthcare services. > > doctors are “forced” to sell their labor to the provincial health ministries, and taxpayers (unless they are unemployed) are “forced” to purchase their health insurance through taxation. So the answer is No. Canadians are not forced to buy insurance, and insurance companies are not forced to sell it. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/304 "2009-11-15T04:38:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I guess that makes me a bad person because I want a public option. I never said you were a bad person. But why should I pay for your health care? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/305 "2009-11-15T04:40:53Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > But why should I pay for your health care? Because a healthy population is more productive. Because businesses with a more-productive workforce are more profitable. Because people who are bankrupted by medical expenses don’t buy things and support the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/306 "2009-11-15T04:50:43Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So the answer is No. Canadians are not forced to buy insurance, and insurance companies are not forced to sell it. Thanks for playing. are you deliberately obtuse? provinces run their own health insurance agencies. and, since you seem to be a hyperanal douchebag, they are “forced to sell it” - the Canada Health Act makes the provision of healthcare by the provinces mandatory. and, sure, you can remain willfully unemployed so that you don’t “pay for” your healthcare. but you still receive it, whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/307 "2009-11-15T05:05:13Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > I never said you were a bad person. So how the hell am I supposed get health insurance? > [@](#): > > But why should I pay for your health care? I’ll pay for my own healthcare. I will just be writing a check to Uncle Sam. You don’t owe me a thing. Besides, American businesses are at a competetive disadvantage in a world market where manufacturers in other most other industrialized nations don’t have the burden of paying for employee’s health care. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/308 "2009-11-15T05:09:33Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > are you deliberately obtuse? > > provinces run their own health insurance agencies. and, since you seem to be a hyperanal douchebag, they are “forced to sell it” - the Canada Health Act makes the provision of healthcare by the provinces mandatory. > > and, sure, you can remain willfully unemployed so that you don’t “pay for” your healthcare. but you still receive it, whether you like it or not. No, that would be you being deliberately obtuse. In Canada, individuals are NOT required to buy insurance, (since it’s provided by the government) and private insurance companies are NOT forced to sell it. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/309 "2009-11-15T05:09:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Hasn’t it been pointed out to you that insurance isn’t affordable to some people, due to no fault of their own? > > Ah forget it, you’re too stupid to learn. Well, since that has been discussed and it has been shown that very few people cannot afford insurance _thru no fault of their own_, I’d say it is you that is too stupid to learn. Except I don’t really think that, I think you are merely too wrapped up in the idea of how wonderful a UHC would be so you support it without really looking into it. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > do you know how those laws work, precisely? IIRC, the only way the government “gets away with” forcing employer-sponsored plans to cover pre-existing conditions is that they will not grant a tax deduction to employers who carry plans which do impose pre-existing conditions. And, in my years in insurance, no medium to large employers passed on that tax deduction. > [@](#): > > this is hugely different than mandating, not incentivizing, a private insurance company be forced to take all insured. And? Are you saying that it would be impossible to mandate it? > [@](#): > > and, again, it has been pointed out that this will create even worse incentives for people to be uninsured until they get sick. having a health system where no one cares for preventive medicine at all because they can get insured at the drop of a hat when shit goes wrong is not wise. That doesn’t even make sense. How would covering pre-ex cause more people to be uninsured than they are now? Are you of the impression that a cold, flu, well checks, vaccinations, a broken leg, etc are pre-existing conditions? Besides, if you are under the impression that the premiums that people will pay to have the UHC are going to cover their care, you can always write a policy that says that non-life threatening pre-existing conditions will not be covered for a year, or at 50% or whatever the actuaries think is best. These are things that you all who want a UHC are missing - there are scores of ways to fix the issue within the private insurance companies, without creating a huge new government program, with billions of dollar for them to mismanage. Why are you in such a rush to turn everything on it’s head? > [@](#): > > typically, you have to be basically bankrupt to get medicaid. that’s a great solution, you’ve sumbled upon - surrender all of your assets to stay alive! I have no idea how it is in other states, but in California that is not at all true - you can even have private insurance and also have MediCal. Of course, you also have to have children, since the state doesn’t care about adults. Anyway, you missed that word “extend” - Medicaid could be rewritten to cover the uninsurable. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > What DOES piss me off is that she seems to think that her case is somehow “different”, and belittles the idea of anyone else getting government aid. The idea of being against UHC, when you are already getting aid from the government seems contradictory at best, and downright fucking hypocritical at worst. Shrug. You all keep wanting to call Social Security government _aid_ because you don’t like my opinions on a UHC in the US. Let’s try this one - do people who get welfare, food stamps, ADC, etc pay income tax? ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/310 "2009-11-15T05:10:56Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > in canada they do > > you can’t opt out because there is no private delivery of healthcare services. The wealthy Canadians come to the U.S. or privatized health care. The other Canadians wait their turn for medical treatment. It takes 4 months to get an MRI in Canada. I have some Canadian friends who can tell you about it. If it’s normal, routine medicine, no problem. But come in with something unusual or that requires a specialist…make out your will. It baffles me how so many Americans can be so stupid about this. I hate to use the word, “stupid,” but there is not a better term. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/311 "2009-11-15T05:13:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Medicaid could be rewritten to cover the uninsurable. So why is that brand of socialism acceptable, yet the public option is an abomination? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/312 "2009-11-15T05:14:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Besides, American businesses are at a competetive disadvantage in a world market where manufacturers in other most other industrialized nations don’t have the burden of paying for employee’s health care. Except American businesses are not competing against industrialized nations like Sweden. They’re competing against India, China, Malaysia, etc. How’s the health care in India, for example? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/313 "2009-11-15T05:14:50Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > I have some Canadian friends who can tell you about it. > > If it’s normal, routine medicine, no problem. > > But come in with something unusual or that requires a specialist…make out your will. > > It baffles me how so many Americans can be so stupid about this. You have been misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/314 "2009-11-15T05:19:13Z")
Hey Nobody: I think I failed to supply the link to the article I quoted. [Here you go](http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091114/US.Medicare.Fraud/). ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/315 "2009-11-15T05:22:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ALL HAIL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY! > > Intergalactic Rulers of the ‘I know what is best for everybody and We will forbid Freedom of Choice to Everyone’ Clan. > > They remind me of Hieronymus Bosch’s paintings. > . I have news for you. The conservative mind doesn’t bother to spend any time thinking that way, Your post tells me you have no understanding of what conservatism is all about., It is about self reliance and independence. It is about not carrying the load for deadbeats. The conservative mind is about letting States taking care of their own business and keeping the Federal government out of States’ affairs–which is basically the whole point of the American revolution. The Federal government’s role is more about protecting the “United” States and less about running it. See why they call it the “United” States? We are individual States that have banded together. Buy a History book. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/316 "2009-11-15T05:24:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You have been misinformed. You think so? The burden is on you to prove me wrong. Show me. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/317 "2009-11-15T05:27:01Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > I have news for you. So you deny that Conservatives are working very hard to prevent Americans from choosing a public healthcare option if they want to? You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to deny Civil Rights to Gay people? You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to take away a woman’s right to her own body? Why do you hate Freedom? ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/318 "2009-11-15T05:29:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You have been misinformed. Go a step further and look at England. A child in England with allergies and eczema and needs an allergist has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting the care she needs. I know this. I have seen it happen to my own family. Oh, I forgot to be rude here in the BBQ Pit. Let me rephrase that. “I have seen it happen to my own family, you stupid, sheepish, head-up-your-ass douche bag.” Sorry for not being rude before. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/319 "2009-11-15T05:32:26Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > Your post tells me you have no understanding of what conservatism is all about., > > It is about self reliance and independence. So why do most of the so-called red states, where conservatism reigns, [consume far more federal spending](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html)than they pay in taxes? How much longer do you expect liberals in the blue states to pay for your “self reliance and independence”? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/320 "2009-11-15T05:35:25Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > The burden is on you to prove me wrong. Since when? You made the extraordinary claim, supported by nothing more than personal anecdotes. Until you can produce some hard statistical evidence, your claim is just so much hot air. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=17)