# Attention anti health-care reformers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745 "2009-11-08T00:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/321 "2009-11-15T05:35:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So you deny that Conservatives are working very hard to prevent Americans from choosing a public healthcare option if they want to? The majority of Americans don’t want it. > [@](#): > > You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to deny Civil Rights to Gay people? Gay people have the same civil rights as anybody else. > [@](#): > > You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to take away a woman’s right to her own body? You misread the status quo, which includes both Roe V. Wade, AND the Hyde Amendment. As imperfect as it is, most people don’t want to turn over that apple-cart. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/322 "2009-11-15T05:38:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So you deny that Conservatives are working very hard to prevent \*\*Americans from choosing \*\*a public healthcare option if they want to? > > You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to deny Civil Rights to Gay people? > > You deny that Conservatives are working very hard to take away a woman’s right to her own body? > > Why do you hate Freedom? OK, let me spell it out for you. Conservatives want Americans to be able to choose as they please. Conservatives don’t care if you are Gay or not. The Bush-Cheney administration did more for Gay rights than any democrat ever did. But the conservative way of thinking is that Gays have the same rights as everyone else. Why would Gays be entitled to something extra? Aren’t we all created equally? Most real conservatives never were against pro-choice, and the rest quit worrying about pro-choice a long, long time ago. People who storm or protest abortion clinics are not conservative. They are nut cases. I love Freedom. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/323 "2009-11-15T05:39:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So why do most of the so-called red states, where conservatism reigns, [consume far more federal spending](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html)than they pay in taxes? How much longer do you expect liberals in the blue states to pay for your “self reliance and independence”? Prove it. Show me the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/324 "2009-11-15T05:41:19Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > Prove it. Show me the numbers. [Ahem.](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/325 "2009-11-15T05:42:45Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > And, in my years in insurance, no medium to large employers passed on that tax deduction. no, of course they wouldn’t. that’s why they effectively force the insurance company to write a policy that doesn’t exclude pre-existing conditions. the incentive works well (for those employed by large enough corporations who represent sufficiently large risk pools so that they can actually afford the policy the insurer is offering) > [@](#): > > And? Are you saying that it would be impossible to mandate it? yes, i’m suggesting that you may have constitutional issues by forcing a private company to take a certain client (at a loss) by fiat. i do not know the intricacies of state insurance codes, however, and the powers that they have to regulate insurance companies in this way. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t even make sense. How would covering pre-ex cause more people to be uninsured than they are now? because if i’m not forced to buy insurance, and an insurance company has to cover my pre-existing conditions, i’m not going to buy health insurance until i’m sick. so preventive medicine will go down the tubes, fast. > [@](#): > > Are you of the impression that a cold, flu, well checks, vaccinations, a broken leg, etc are pre-existing conditions? Besides, if you are under the impression that the premiums that people will pay to have the UHC are going to cover their care, you can always write a policy that says that non-life threatening pre-existing conditions will not be covered for a year, or at 50% or whatever the actuaries think is best. These are things that you all who want a UHC are missing - there are scores of ways to fix the issue within the private insurance companies, without creating a huge new government program, with billions of dollar for them to mismanage. Why are you in such a rush to turn everything on it’s head? I can’t comprehend most of what you wrote here, please try to make it more intelligible. But, no matter, if there are “scores” of ways to fix the issues, do us a favor and tell us about them? > [@](#): > > I have no idea how it is in other states, but in California that is not at all true - you can even have private insurance and also have MediCal. Of course, you also have to have children, since the state doesn’t care about adults. Anyway, you missed that word “extend” - Medicaid could be rewritten to cover the uninsurable . well thanks for shifting the goalposts. i’m not talking about children. and as a poster mentioned below, how come this brand of “socialism” is kosher? oh, i know, because it pawns the money-losing clients off on the government and society at large. > [@](#): > > Shrug. You all keep wanting to call Social Security government _aid_ because you don’t like my opinions on a UHC in the US. Let’s try this one - do people who get welfare, food stamps, ADC, etc pay income tax? why yes, they do. I.R.C. § 85. Unemployment compensation (a) General rule In the case of an individual, gross income includes unemployment compensation. i’m not quite sure what your point is, though. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/326 "2009-11-15T05:43:45Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > The majority of Americans don’t want it. Nearly half of the population supports the current plan. According to a CNN report, nearly 70% say that the health care system needs to be reformed. > [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Gay people have the same civil rights as anybody else. I was misinformed. I was under the impression that Gay people couldn’t get married. > [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > You misread the status quo, which includes both Roe V. Wade, AND the Hyde Amendment. As imperfect as it is, most people don’t want to turn over that apple-cart. If you don’t think abortion is a contentious issue, and that Conservatives are not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, you have your head in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/327 "2009-11-15T05:46:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Ahem.](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html) yes, I see that. The first state I looked at is my own, one of the largest conservative states. We are under. We pay more out than we pay in. Secondly, that statistic is misleading. The dollar in/put ratio is meaningless until you “normalize” the data among the 50 states. If you don’t know what data normalization is, you have no business quoting statistics. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/328 "2009-11-15T05:50:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I was misinformed. I was under the impression that Gay people couldn’t get married. Gay people have been getting married for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/329 "2009-11-15T05:53:44Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > yes, I see that. > > The first state I looked at is my own, one of the largest conservative states. We are under. We pay more out than we pay in. Then you are in one of the 15% of red states who do. 85% of states who voted for George Bush in 2004 received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. > [@](#): > > Secondly, that statistic is misleading. The dollar in/put ratio is meaningless until you “normalize” the data among the 50 states. > > If you don’t know what data normalization is, you have no business quoting statistics. I know what normalization is. I also know obfuscation when I see it. Conservative states consume more tax dollars than they contribute, at the expense of liberal states. Conservatives are the parasites on the federal government, not the liberals. We can’t afford your bizarre definition of “self reliance and independence”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/330 "2009-11-15T05:54:45Z")
Do they, like, get assignments from some central organizing point? They have a database of belligerent online rightarded _baguettes douche_? And every once in a while, one or two get assigned to us? Or is it totally random, they float through the interwebs like viruses. They might just as well have landed on an antiques hobbyists message board, or gay sudoku enthusiasts, but they just happened to come here. If we sacrifice a chicken and bury it at a crossroads when the moon is full, will that keep them away? Does it have to be a virgin? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/331 "2009-11-15T05:54:59Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > OK, let me spell it out for you. > > Conservatives want Americans to be able to choose as they please. > > Conservatives don’t care if you are Gay or not. The Bush-Cheney administration did more for Gay rights than any democrat ever did. But the conservative way of thinking is that Gays have the same rights as everyone else. Why would Gays be entitled to something extra? Aren’t we all created equally? > > Most real conservatives never were against pro-choice, and the rest quit worrying about pro-choice a long, long time ago. People who storm or protest abortion clinics are not conservative. They are nut cases. > > I love Freedom. No, Conservatives want people to choose what they say they can choose. I choose the public option. There. Can I have my card now? What? There’s no public option? But didn’t you just say that Americans are free to choose? It’s like gun control. If you don’t like guns, don’t buy one. If you’d rather buy your own insurance, go ahead. But don’t tell me what I’m free to choose. Let me choose, or shut up about ‘freedom to choose’. Gays don’t want anything ‘extra’. They just want to have equal rights. Here in Washington we passed a law giving Gays the same rights and responsibilities as the rest of us. The only thing they could not have was the word ‘marriage’. So what did the Right do? They launched a campaign to deny those equal rights to Gays. Oh sure, they _say_ that all they want is the word ‘marriage’; but when the People vote and give equal rights _and_ give Conservatives their ‘word’, they want to take away rights and make an entire class of citizen second-class citizens. And who is it exactly who are protesting abortion? Not Liberals. I agree with you that they’re nut cases. But they’re your nut cases. They are Conservatives. Conservatives are anti-American. Right now they’re playing politics as if it were a football game, and the Country be damned. As long as they win, the country can go to hell. Traitors, I call them. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/332 "2009-11-15T05:55:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Nearly half of the population supports the current plan. Which means that the majority, i.e. more than half, DOESN’T. > [@](#): > > I was misinformed. I was under the impression that Gay people couldn’t get married. IME, no one could give a fuck what gay people do. Gay is not an issue. > [@](#): > > If you don’t think abortion is a contentious issue, and that Conservatives are not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, you have your head in the sand. How are "Conservatives’ trying to overturn RVW? They don’t have the numbers on the Supreme Court anyway. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/333 "2009-11-15T05:55:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I also know obfuscation when I see it. So you are admitting the data set is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/334 "2009-11-15T05:57:45Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Which means that the majority, i.e. more than half, DOESN’T. you are aware that “support” and “don’t support” aren’t the only survey response options, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/335 "2009-11-15T05:58:09Z")
> [@coyote2009](#): > > So you are admitting the data set is invalid. My data is rock solid. You are invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/336 "2009-11-15T05:59:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Conservatives are anti-American. Right now they’re playing politics as if it were a football game, and the Country be damned. As long as they win, the country can go to hell. Traitors, I call them. And now you’ve lost it. Put the beer down, and go to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/337 "2009-11-15T06:00:11Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Which means that the majority, i.e. more than half, DOESN’T. You really do have a problem with reading comprehension, don’t you? 70% is more than half, and therefore the majority. I SAID that most people WANT to overhaul healthcare. Your ‘majority’ just don’t like this specific plan, which would be much more palatable if you lot didn’t work so hard to make it bad. > [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > IME, no one could give a fuck what gay people do. Gay is not an issue. I don’t care what they do. But I do care that all of our citizens have the same rights. YOU want to deny rights. > [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > How are "Conservatives’ trying to overturn RVW? They don’t have the numbers on the Supreme Court anyway. You’re not seriously suggesting that Liberals are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, are you? :dubious: . ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/338 "2009-11-15T06:01:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, Conservatives want people to choose what they say they can choose. > > I choose the public option. There. Can I have my card now? What? There’s no public option? But didn’t you just say that Americans are free to choose? It’s like gun control. If you don’t like guns, don’t buy one. If you’d rather buy your own insurance, go ahead. But don’t tell me what I’m free to choose. Let me choose, or shut up about ‘freedom to choose’. > > Gays don’t want anything ‘extra’. They just want to have equal rights. Here in Washington we passed a law giving Gays the same rights and responsibilities as the rest of us. The only thing they could not have was the word ‘marriage’. So what did the Right do? They launched a campaign to deny those equal rights to Gays. Oh sure, they _say_ that all they want is the word ‘marriage’; but when the People vote and give equal rights _and_ give Conservatives their ‘word’, they want to take away rights and make an entire class of citizen second-class citizens. > > And who is it exactly who are protesting abortion? Not Liberals. I agree with you that they’re nut cases. But they’re your nut cases. They are Conservatives. > > Conservatives are anti-American. Right now they’re playing politics as if it were a football game, and the Country be damned. As long as they win, the country can go to hell. Traitors, I call them. JohnnyLA, you’ll have to stick to one argument at a time. But before that you will need to remove your PREJUDICE against Republicans and Conservatives. It is clear that you are prejudiced. Look back at your rants. The entire basis of your argument is that conservatives and Republicans are bad, evil, wicked, liars. Did you happen to notice that I never attacked liberals? That is because I am arguing about the issues and not categorically denouncing a group who happens to think differently than I do. You have proven yourself guilty of the very thing you claim to despise. Free your mind. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/339 "2009-11-15T06:04:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > My data is rock solid. You are invalid. See, there you go again. Personal attack instead of arguing the issues. This is when I quit arguing. I’ll waste no more time on you. Have a good night. ---
**Author:** ![coyote2009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@coyote2009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coyote2009)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/340 "2009-11-15T06:05:49Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > And now you’ve lost it. Put the beer down, and go to bed. I think he has one of those alcohol powered keyboards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=18)