# Attention anti health-care reformers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745 "2009-11-08T00:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/421 "2009-11-18T02:31:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > For the record, I did not post at 10:55 PM on 11-14-2009. More transparent misdirection by **curlcoat**. Post # 369 has your user name, the date 11/14/09 and a time of 10:55 PM on it. Even if it turns out that someone else used your account to post that, it is hardly “transparent misdirection” on my part to believe that you posted on that date, at that time. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/422 "2009-11-18T02:35:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is it fair for healthy people to subsidize the sick ones? If not, then you have pretty much negated the whole reason for insurance. If not, then you have pretty much negated the whole reason for a UHC. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/423 "2009-11-18T03:05:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Post # 369 has your user name, the date 11/14/09 and a time of 10:55 PM on it. [No it doesn’t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11780360&postcount=369) Now shut the fuck up, you miserable anal leakage. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/424 "2009-11-18T03:05:13Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I know that groups can negotiate better purchasing terms than an individual can. I’m trying to find out why that difference is so extreme in the case of health insurance, particularly compared to other types of insurance. It depends on the size of the company. A small business may actually pay higher rates then they would as individuals. A lot of that is because the business is not subject to medical underwriting where the individual is. > [@](#): > > Could I form a company that re-sells health insurance? I’ll find 1,000 individuals who want health insurance. They’ll pay me, then I’ll shop around to Cigna, Blue Cross, etc. and negotiate a group policy for all of us. Is that legal or feasible? Is it already being done? It don’t know about all states, but it would depend on if the group qualified as a ‘group’ under state law. Some areas do offer association policies, these are normally groups of small businesses. For example in California the requirement is that there are at 1000 covered persons, that the association NOT exist for the sole purpose of having insurance and that the only requirement to be in the association is that your business is of the same type as the others. (such as a bunch of salon owners, lawyers or some such) > [@](#): > > Car insurance is sold to individuals. Depending on who files a claim, the insurance company makes money on some customers, loses money on others, and turns a profit on the aggregate. But all the analysis I read about health insurance talks as if the risks must be shared only amongst the members of a particular policy. Why? To some degree you’re right, but the overall risk is spread among all policyholders. There is a degree of variation in the premiums charged to different groups or individuals, but the base rate is determined by the overall pool of insureds. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/425 "2009-11-18T03:06:44Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > If not, then you have pretty much negated the whole reason for a UHC. Christ you are a fecking moron. You just agreed with me, you festering yob. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/426 "2009-11-18T04:35:32Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > here is CBO’s bottom-line statement on the effect that implementing tort reform would have on the costs of healthcare in this country: > > [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort\_Reform.pdf](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf) > > this is dated Oct 9, 2009. It seems we’re basically talking $35 bucks a person here. (Rumor is making a lewd gesture with his fingers curled around to make an O and moving up in down in a repetitive motion) So your argument is that I’m right, just not as much as the quotes I provided suggested that I was? So you’re in favor of tort reform then? Welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/427 "2009-11-18T04:39:02Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So your argument is that I’m right, just not as much as the quotes I provided suggested that I was? > > So you’re in favor of tort reform then? Welcome! no, i am still not in favor - the costs to victims of medical malpractice of these “reforms” is far greater than the 35 dollars we will be saving. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/428 "2009-11-18T04:45:13Z")
also, i never claimed that medical malpractice didn’t cause any defensive medicine. i merely suggested that it was no where near the 10% claimed. the “just not as much” part was the crux of my disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/429 "2009-11-18T04:50:20Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > 200 employers is quite a large company. but if you love waste in coordinating the buying of insurance policies amongst many many small businesses with different needs and reservation prices, be my guest. maybe all of those companies can merge their operations, too. oh, wait, you were in the health insurance benefits sector of the economy prior to your misfortune, weren’t you? Since my husband and I previously have always worked for companies that employ thousands, 200 employees seems rather small. As for coordinating the buying of policies, that wouldn’t be done - one or two plans can be offered and the small companies can decide if they want to be part of the group getting these policies at large group rates. The same way that insurance companies approach most large companies now. > [@](#): > > no, it’s not a small effect. if you’ve got leukemia and all the accompanying complications and side effects, having an insurance policy that covers a broken leg is going to be a cold comfort - and won’t do anything to cover the vast majority of your medical expenses. but thanks for taking care of an irrelevant issue. This is not a response to what I said, so I can only assume that you don’t understand insurance any better than the average person does. > [@](#): > > they deny your claim because they suspect that your “just new” illness has manifested previous symptoms. and then you litigate. Recent cite? That is illegal under federal law for group policies. > [@](#): > > my definition of “pre-existing condition” is consistent with the definition of the term as written in my current health insurance policy. so i don’t care what you think. I highly doubt that you have ever seen your whole policy, unless you have an individual policy, which wouldn’t apply here. > [@](#): > > yes. as you apparently “missed” the reason it works with group policies is they want a fortune 500 company’s business more than they don’t want to cover pre-existing conditions. the only way fortune 500 gets a deduction is if the policy they buy does not exclude pre-existings. this incentive mechanism doesn’t work with small employers or individuals. And you “missed” the fact that it is _federal law_ that pre-ex is covered under group policies. It has zero to do with the size of the company buying the policy, tho it probably has everything to do with the price of premiums these days. > [@](#): > > and as far as i’m concerned, i shouldn’t pay into a disability insurance scheme to pay for people who have back pain and “can’t work”. Unless your state requires that you do so, you aren’t. > [@](#): > > yes, that is a completely different matter. and not taking care of this person is a travesty. because if you cure him he can pay for you to sit on your butt and collect disability. As if those things have anything to do with each other. All you are doing is revealing your desire to live in a socialist society, where no one is allowed to have more than anyone else, no matter how hard they work for it. > [@](#): > > because socialism is an economic system where the government owns means of productions. and this is merely an addition to the social insurance policies that exist in this country, like SSDI. Socialism is also essentially punishing those who have more, which is what you are trying to do. > [@](#): > > and people that are on food stamps may have paid prior income tax, and most assuredly pay sales tax. so it’s not really insurance then, either. That is an idiotic response. I paid income tax for the 35 years I worked, and now I am _still_ paying income tax, (as well as sales tax, property tax, gas tax, car tax, etc) while those on government aid are not paying income tax on what they are getting. > [@](#): > > no, the reason they don’t tax food stamps is that in order to qualify for them, you have to be so broke that you’re presumptively not going to pass your standard deduction + personal exemption barriers. taxing an extremely broke person is foolhardy, from a public policy perspective. and, since food stamps and subsidized housing are payments-in-kind, and not in actual money, you’re going to be trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. You just agreed with me about the difference between SSDI and government aid. > [@](#): > > so, absent a house, you can own no more than 6,400, basically. yeah, that’s scrooge mcduck level of wealth. It is also hardly destitute. It is also the _least_ a person can end up with after Chapter 7, and it doesn’t factor in whether or not they have a job. > [@](#): > > so now my question: why is a social insurance policy in the form of SSDI any less contemptible to you than a social insurance policy in the form of medical coverage? The last I heard, the government is going pay for the UHC by taxing those who make $300,000 and up (which is unrealistic - I’m sure they will soon tax the middle class as well to pay for this thing), so those who will be taxed will not be those who will benefit from it. As much as you want to pretend that you are being taxed to pay SSDI for others, you aren’t. Your SS taxes will be made available to you when you qualify, just as it is with everyone else. The only reason the actual money taken from your paycheck goes straight to someone else’s benefit check is because the government has borrowed from and mishandled social security almost from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/430 "2009-11-18T05:02:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [No it doesn’t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11780360&postcount=369) Now shut the fuck up, you miserable anal leakage. You are actually unaware that the link you post here goes straight to post #369 that [you wrote](http://www.charwinccrs.com/photos/FearItself.png)? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Christ you are a fecking moron. You just agreed with me, you festering yob. Yup! You don’t think it’s fair that healthy people subsidize sick ones, and I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/431 "2009-11-18T05:12:11Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Since . sigh. we’re just going to dance around and around, and i don’t think there’s any point to do that anymore. so… i am done with this thread if you feel that’s me capitulating, feel free to think whatever you like. like i said - i don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/432 "2009-11-18T05:27:31Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You are actually unaware that the link you post here goes straight to post #369 that [you wrote](http://www.charwinccrs.com/photos/FearItself.png)? Are you actually aware the time stamps are unreliable, and sometimes not the same for everyone? [Here is what I see.](http://web.acsalaska.net/~fmurtley/SDMB369.jpg) I posted that at 1:55AM on Sunday morning. You neglected to account for the time difference. Next time, just use the post #. > [@](#): > > You don’t think it’s fair that healthy people subsidize sick ones… That is the exact opposite of what I believe. I was making a point to **Mr. Smashy** , and once again, it flew right over your head. Please, do not respond to any more of my posts. I wouldn’t want to be responsible if you burst an aneurysm trying to comprehend Socratic reason. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/433 "2009-11-18T13:35:56Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > also, i never claimed that medical malpractice didn’t cause any defensive medicine. i merely suggested that it was no where near the 10% claimed. the “just not as much” part was the crux of my disagreement. Lesson one: never believe government cost estimates. Reality usually comes out far worse. To quote the Senate Joint Economic Committee report: - In 1965, as Congress considered legislation to establish a national Medicare program, the House Ways and Means Committee estimated that the hospital insurance portion of the program, Part A, would cost about $9 billion annually by 1990.v Actual Part A spending in 1990 was $67 billion. The actuary who provided the original cost estimates acknowledged in 1994 that, even after conservatively discounting for the unexpectedly high inflation rates of the early ‘70s and other factors, “the actual [Part A] experience was 165% higher than the estimate.” Medicare (entire program). In 1967, the House Ways and Means Committee predicted that the new Medicare program, launched the previous year, would cost about $12 billion in 1990. Actual Medicare spending, in constant dollars, in 1990 was $110 billion—off by nearly a factor of 10. Medicaid DSH program. In 1987, Congress estimated that Medicaid’s disproportionate share hospital (DSH) payments—which states use to provide relief to hospitals that serve especially large numbers of Medicaid and uninsured patients—would cost less than $1 billion in 1992. The actual cost that year was a staggering $17 billion.\* And it goes on and on… the Medicare Home Health care benefit, the Catastrophic Coverage benefit, etc., all way under-estimated the costs. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/434 "2009-11-18T13:40:42Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, i am still not in favor - the costs to victims of medical malpractice of these “reforms” is far greater than the 35 dollars we will be saving. And by “victims”, I’m assuming that you’re a big fan of the lottery-style tort system we have for making people whole after malpractice? And ambulance-chasers drumming up trumped up claims to get big settlements, to which they keep half? Do you not see how random and unfair the current system is? I thought you lefties were big on fairness? You a trial lawyer by any chance? Or a Democratic fundraiser? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/435 "2009-11-18T13:46:32Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Do you not see how random and unfair the current system is? I thought you lefties were big on fairness? I’m not. If I learned anything from Cheney/Rove, it’s that fairness is for chumps. Losing an election has consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/436 "2009-11-18T14:14:22Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Do you not see how random and unfair the current system is? I thought you lefties were big on fairness? Hey dipshit, we lefties are also supposed to be pussies while you righties are big tough guys. So what’s with all the pathetic whining? Be a man and take it already. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/437 "2009-11-18T15:43:04Z")
Luci, I actually had to do a vanity search on my name to find the post about you wanting cites for something so easily googleable but here ya go: 1. Affordable Health Plans [www.eHealthInsurance.com](http://www.eHealthInsurance.com) No Email Address Required. Compare the Lowest Cost Plans Instantly! 2. Low Cost Healthcare [www.siemens.com/answers](http://www.siemens.com/answers) Siemens Answers for US Healthcare: Expertise to lower healthcare costs 3. Low Cost Health Care [Low-Cost-Health-Insurance-Plans.org](http://Low-Cost-Health-Insurance-Plans.org) Get Low Cost Health Care Online - Blue Cross, Aenta, Humana & More. Search Results 1. Find Low Cost Health Care - The Office of Minority Health Feb 12, 2009 … Finding Low-Cost Health Care 101. If you find yourself without health insurance or are unable to afford medical services, the following list … [minorityhealth.hhs.gov](http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov) › Content Index › Health Topics - Cached 2. HRSA - Find a Health Center - Search Page … Accessibility | Free Acrobat Reader | Health Professions | Healthcare Systems | HIV/AIDS | Maternal and Child Health | Primary Health Care | Rural Health. [findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/](http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/) - Cached - Similar 3. Affordable health insurance - individual family and self-employed What can you do to provide low-cost protection for your family’s health? … You’ll also find information on the quality of health care in individual states … [www.healthinsurance.org/](http://www.healthinsurance.org/) - Cached - Similar 4. HRSA - Find Help: Free & Low-Cost Health Care Hill-Burton Free & Reduced Cost Care at hospitals, nursing homes and other … a specific amount of free or below cost health care to people unable to pay. … [www.hrsa.gov/help/default.htm](http://www.hrsa.gov/help/default.htm) - Cached - Similar 5. Programs that offer free or low cost health care - RxAssist Programs That Offer Free or Low Cost Health Care. Community health centers. Community health centers that are regulated by the federal government exist in … [RxAssist - Patient Assistance Programs](http://www.rxassist.org/patients/res-free-low-cost-healthcare.cfm) - Cached - Similar 6. HRSA Information Center The Health Resources and Services Administration Information Center distributes free HRSA publications on primary healthcare, HIV/AIDS, maternal and child … [www.ask.hrsa.gov/](http://www.ask.hrsa.gov/) - Cached 7. MDCH - Help Finding Health Care This site has links to other web pages with information and phone numbers for places with low cost or free health care, or help with health insurance. … [www.michigan.gov/healthcarehelp](http://www.michigan.gov/healthcarehelp) - Cached - Similar 8. Low Cost Health Insurance Find low cost health insurance at eHealthInsurnace. We will help you find affordable medical insurance plans. [www.ehealthinsurance.com/low-cost-health-insurance](http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/low-cost-health-insurance) - Cached 9. Affordable Health Insurance - How To Buy Private Health Insurance Before you rush out looking for an affordable health insurance plan arm yourself with the facts about private health insurance and get the best low cost … [medicalhealthinsurancetoday.com/](http://medicalhealthinsurancetoday.com/) - I really don’t have the patience to fix the links as they should be, I figure you have the wherewithal to type some of those in and get some rate quotes yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/438 "2009-11-18T17:05:25Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > sigh. we’re just going to dance around and around, and i don’t think there’s any point to do that anymore. so… i am done with this thread > > if you feel that’s me capitulating, feel free to think whatever you like. like i said - i don’t care. You’re dealing with the Curlinator here. She can’t be bargained with. She can’t be reasoned with. She doesn’t feel pity or remorse. And she absolutely WILL NOT STOP, until everyone gives up and the thread is dead. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/439 "2009-11-18T17:18:44Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Luci, > I actually had to do a vanity search on my name to find the post about you wanting cites for something so easily googleable but here ya go:… I hope this moment of rare triumph will not be deflated when I advise I have no idea what you’re talking about. When dealing with a victim of early onset Budweiser’s, its always best to include reminders. Secondly, what is this “vanity search” of which you speak? This is not the way of my people… ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745/440 "2009-11-18T21:37:11Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Hey dipshit, we lefties are also supposed to be pussies while you righties are big tough guys. So what’s with all the pathetic whining? Be a man and take it already. > > -Joe #1, I’m hardly a righty #2, Who’s whining? Just trying to get people to have an honest conversation about all the upsides and downsides, not just reacting to anecdotal sob stories about someone who doesn’t have healthcare #3, Dipshit, eh? A piece of advice for you: shush, adults talking here [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-anti-health-care-reformers/516745.md?page=23)