# Attention: Atheists. You do not "Know the Truth". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708 "2009-10-22T03:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/221 "2009-10-23T17:57:45Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Did the atoms in his theory expect us to worship them and follow the rules they set forth? Unlikely. > > I can’t prove that there isn’t a god. I can’t prove that there aren’t pixies. But the people who believe in pixies aren’t saying I’m going to hell because I don’t believe in them. They aren’t trying to get pixie prayers into our schools (not that I’m aware of, in any case). If you want to say that the debate is moot because we can’t prove it either way then okay. But there is more to this than just a debate. People base their lives on something unprovable. More importantly they affect the lives of others, in many cases negatively, because they believe in things that there is no proof of. So, it comes down to this. If you want to have a discussion about the existence of god and leave it at that then no one gets hurt. But if you want us to do something because of a particular belief, then it is imperative that you prove that what you are basing your beliefs upon is real. I think this is what a lot of atheists get their underwear in a knot over. But no one’s trying to argue that here. Oakminster and I seem to basically both be saying “Don’t be smug bastards thinking you’re absolutely right.” Everybody that tries to tie this to the Judeo-Christian God is completely missing the point. The Judeo-Christian God is not relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/222 "2009-10-23T18:01:00Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Oakminster and I seem to basically both be saying “Don’t be smug bastards thinking you’re absolutely right.” What’s your opinion of elves on the moon? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/223 "2009-10-23T18:02:36Z")
Things I have witnessed (no pun intended) Christians doing that I have never seen atheists do: Have my seat mate try and convert me during a long plane ride. Begin a meal at their home by having me hold hands and acknowledge their belief. Start a school day, in a public school, with recitation of their belief. Start a school day with a pledge that includes affirming their belief. Have a recitation of belief at the beginning of graduation ceremonies. Come to my door and try and convert me. Put their religious beliefs on my currency. Scream at the top of their lungs at a college campus during lunch in an attempt to scare me into accepting their belief or be punished for eternity. Get a tax break on their meeting places. Leave stupid comic books on my car windows. Have the local parking authority modify parking fees and rules to accommodate their belief. Mention their beliefs when I sneeze. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/224 "2009-10-23T18:04:41Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > The problem is that you’re taking that last position – which, I agree, is the most reasonable one to hold – to imply that things could go either way. That’s simply not a stance from which you can argue in any meaningful way, since then, everything could go either way, and it is impossible to call any position more reasonable than any other position. You may want to submit to an epistemology in which Holocaust denial is just as good a position as the historical facts are, or in which evolution stands on par with last Thursdayism as an explanation for the complexity of nature; to me, this is nothing but intellectual defeatism, and hence, since the only way (that I know of, at any rate) to guarantee reasonableness (not correctness, mind!) is to minimize your explanatory entities, disbelief – lack of belief – in anything not in evidence, anything not necessarily required to explain the observational facts, is the default position to take. This is getting tiresome. The existence or nonexistence of God or gods is a subject about which there is no evidence. The Holocaust is not such a subject. Evolution is not such a subject. Please stop trying to argue by analogy when the analogy doesn’t hold. If you want to posit pixies or unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters, that’s fine, but historical events and laws of nature that have substantiating evidence are different from theoretical unprovable supernatural entities. > [@](#): > > As for the ‘generic god’, I don’t think that’s a very meaningful concept to talk about – how would you define such a thing? (snip) I never asserted it was meaningful to talk about. I think metaphysics, as a whole, isn’t meaningful to talk about. It’s just interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/225 "2009-10-23T18:05:22Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Mention their beliefs when I sneeze. I know a lot of Atheists that do this. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/226 "2009-10-23T18:05:26Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > But no one’s trying to argue that here. Oakminster and I seem to basically both be saying “Don’t be smug bastards thinking you’re absolutely right.” Everybody that tries to tie this to the Judeo-Christian God is completely missing the point. The Judeo-Christian God is not relevant to this discussion. So what are the characteristics of the god that _is_ relevant to this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/227 "2009-10-23T18:06:17Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Also not true. There may not be any way of catagorically disproving the existence of gods, but there is plenty of evidence showing that there is no need for any god to be involved in the creation of the universe and its evolution. This combined with Occam’s Razor can be used to demonstrate that: If god is not necessary for the universe to exist, then that is one entity too many and therefore we can assume the non existence of that entity until proven otherwise. > > Furthermore, lack of belief in god(s) is falsifiable, if they exist they could, in theory, appear to the whole human race and let us know. The fact that they don’t and haven’t, combined with the fact that god is not necessary for the creation of the universe is evidence enough for me. I can’t be 100% sure I’m right, but I’ll stick at 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% certainty of the non existence of any deity. Occam’s Razor is a useful tool for forming hypotheses. It is a piss-poor tool for validating them. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/228 "2009-10-23T18:06:46Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > But no one’s trying to argue that here. Oakminster and I seem to basically both be saying “Don’t be smug bastards thinking you’re absolutely right.” Everybody that tries to tie this to the Judeo-Christian God is completely missing the point. The Judeo-Christian God is not relevant to this discussion. Again just to be clear, you DO agree that it’s perfectly reasonable to be certain that the Judeo-Christian God and others like it do not exist? As long as we make an exception for something like a pure deist. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/229 "2009-10-23T18:07:17Z")
> [@Mindfield](#): > > I think you mistake my position; my assertion all along has been that I do not believe God exists, and do not believe there needs to be any meaning attached to anything on a cosmic level. Shit, as they say, happens. Sometimes it’s just because someone is an asshole, sometimes it’s because someone is careless, sometimes it’s because someone’s vital organs just decided to give out, sometimes it’s disease for no readily apparent reason, and sometimes you just get flattened by an asteroid that just happened to pop out of the Oort cloud and land on Earth – on _you_. Random stuff happens all the time and frequently there’s absolutely no rhyme or reason to it – or at least none that we have the capacity or desire to trace. It happened, that is the reality. I see no real need to try and deconstruct it any further than that. Unless you believe in a an omniscient, omnipresent god that is involved in the mechanism and workings on earth. Then it inescapable. You have no choice but to deal with it. Of course it quickly gets into an ugly dance with illogic and blind belief your dancing partners. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/230 "2009-10-23T18:09:02Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You said that “[if] a supreme being exists, it’s beyond the capabilities of the scientific method.” I pointed out that no, there is an infinite number of possible supreme beings that would be provable–so isn’t it convenient that none of the ones people currently believe in are that type, or that all of the ones that people say are provable don’t hold up when tested… They’d be provable insofar as they wished to be. They’d be beyond the scientific method until they decided otherwise. Again, design an experiment to prove whether or not a generic, noninterfering god exists. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/231 "2009-10-23T18:09:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > The Judeo-Christian God is not relevant to this discussion. Well, that’s hardly true. At least, it’s the type of supreme being that everybody posting in this thread is likely to be most familiar with, most likely to have believed in at some point, and most likely to be encouraged to believe in. It’s also the type of supreme being with the particular attributes that theists like to use to explain why we can’t observe or interact with it. “But this is different,” is what we constantly hear when God is compared to equally silly fabrications, like the Invisible Pink Unicorn. We’re not _really_ talking about deities like Thor when we have these discussions. Things like fairies and unicorns are good examples for illustrating the silliness and nonsensical nature of religious belief, but I think it’s dishonest to remove it from a specifically Judeo-Christian context. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/232 "2009-10-23T18:15:05Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > **CandidGamera** I am truly puzzled about your position. What is this “god” that you think may exist? What are it’s properties? Are just saying that something exists that we know nothing about, that we may not be able to know anything about, that does not interact with our universe, and that is not detectable in any way? Is this what you want to spend your time thinking and arguing about? > > Your argument seems to be that it is OK to believe that a specific god does not exist, but that it is arrogant to not believe in a god that can not be characterized in any way. In a sense, you have offered nothing to believe or disbelieve. My position is that anyone who claims to be certain that there is no god is no better from an objective standpoint that one who claims to be certain that there IS a god. I never said it was arrogant to not believe in a god, I said it was arrogant to be certain in that belief to the extent that you judge those who come to an opposite conclusion to be inferior or defective in reasoning ability. I’m not here to ‘prove’ the existence of a supreme being. I’m not here to offer anyone anything to believe or disbelieve, other than the tenet “Thou shalt not be a smug, superior asshole, full of false certitude.” ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/233 "2009-10-23T18:15:55Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > I know a lot of Atheists that do this. I always say _Gesundheit_ – “good health.” “Bless you” always struck me as disingenuous coming from an atheist, although I realize that the term has become so genericized as to have largely divorced itself from its religious roots. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Unless you believe in a an omniscient, omnipresent god that is involved in the mechanism and workings on earth. Then it inescapable. You have no choice but to deal with it. Of course it quickly gets into an ugly dance with illogic and blind belief your dancing partners. Well, you have no choice but to deal with it either way. It simply becomes a matter of what, if anything, you turn to in order to cope: Deal with it rationally or smother it in religion? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/234 "2009-10-23T18:19:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > An arrogant atheist will be an asshole who thinks they know better than you. > > An arrogant theist will be an asshole who thinks they are better than you, \*\*and \*\*wants to force you to be just like them and the rest of the world to operate by their rules. Amen. 😃 And both are worthy of opposition. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/235 "2009-10-23T18:19:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > My position is that anyone who claims to be certain that there is no god is no better from an objective standpoint that one who claims to be certain that there IS a god. I never said it was arrogant to not believe in a god, I said it was arrogant to be certain in that belief to the extent that you judge those who come to an opposite conclusion to be inferior or defective in reasoning ability. But do you think that anyone who claims to be certain that there are no elves on the moon is no better from an objective standpoint than one who claims to be certain that there are elves on the moon? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/236 "2009-10-23T18:21:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What’s your opinion of elves on the moon? I don’t know, never met’em. Do they vote Democratic? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/237 "2009-10-23T18:22:12Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So what are the characteristics of the god that _is_ relevant to this discussion? Your question contains a faulty assumption. There is no specific god relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/238 "2009-10-23T18:23:23Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > This is getting tiresome. The existence or nonexistence of God or gods is a subject about which there is no evidence. The Holocaust is not such a subject. Evolution is not such a subject. Please stop trying to argue by analogy when the analogy doesn’t hold. I’m not arguing by analogy, I’m outlining consequences of ditching the requirement of keeping your explanatory entities minimal in formulating hypotheses. If you can postulate entities willy-nilly, then there exists a theory of gravity in which it is caused by little tiny fairies that in their spare time killed six million Jews during WWII which, since it explains the trajectories of the planets and of thrown stones as well as Newtonian gravity, ought to be judged as reasonable as the latter theory – since, after all, there is no evidence that such fairies don’t exist. That’s the point – if you want to keep the ‘maybe’ stance on everything that could exist, then each and every proposal about the world is equally reasonable as any other. > [@](#): > > If you want to posit pixies or unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters, that’s fine, but historical events and laws of nature that have substantiating evidence are different from theoretical unprovable supernatural entities. That depends entirely on the kind of supernatural entities you wish to posit. There are innumerable history-faking wizards, evidence-conjuring demons, experiment-tampering leprechauns you can posit with as much justification as any god, even a generic one. > [@](#): > > I never asserted it was meaningful to talk about. I think metaphysics, as a whole, isn’t meaningful to talk about. It’s just interesting. You do talk about as if it were meaningful, though. And metaphysics, containing both epistemology and ontology, is the basis you need before you can talk about anything at all – before you even can define something like ‘meaning’. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/239 "2009-10-23T18:25:38Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > Well, that’s hardly true. At least, it’s the type of supreme being that everybody posting in this thread is likely to be most familiar with, most likely to have believed in at some point, and most likely to be encouraged to believe in. It’s also the type of supreme being with the particular attributes that theists like to use to explain why we can’t observe or interact with it. “But this is different,” is what we constantly hear when God is compared to equally silly fabrications, like the Invisible Pink Unicorn. > > We’re not _really_ talking about deities like Thor when we have these discussions. Things like fairies and unicorns are good examples for illustrating the silliness and nonsensical nature of religious belief, but I think it’s dishonest to remove it from a specifically Judeo-Christian context. I’m siding with the folks on your side of the discussion who reject populism as a relevant factor. Just because Yahweh gets the most votes on American Idol doesn’t mean he’s representative of a generic ur-god. If someone else wants to engage you on those points, then fine, but I’m not gonna waste time arguing about inconsistencies in Christian belief. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/240 "2009-10-23T18:27:09Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > My position is that anyone who claims to be certain that there is no god is no better from an objective standpoint that one who claims to be certain that there IS a god. I never said it was arrogant to not believe in a god, I said it was arrogant to be certain in that belief to the extent that you judge those who come to an opposite conclusion to be inferior or defective in reasoning ability. Why is that arrogant? Or perhaps more specifically, why is it not arrogant when it comes from the other camp? Moreover, does that line of reasoning stand if you replaced “god” with any other thing for which there is no evidence of existence and no way to test for it? There comes a point in any search for truth when one must accept something as being the absolute truth for an extensive lack of any shred of evidence to the contrary. If you spend eons looking for something and finding no evidence of its existence, you must logically conclude that the possibility of its existence has approached so close to zero that one must assume it simply doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708.md?page=13)