# Attention: Atheists. You do not "Know the Truth". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708 "2009-10-22T03:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/61 "2009-10-22T15:07:08Z")
Almost all atheists were raised in religion. Then they eventually discard the man in the sky arguments. No evidence and the requirement you should wear blinders and screw yourself into illogic to defend the belief wears people down. I don’t see arrogance. But most atheists are wondering when "believers’ will succumb to logic and the lack of evidence. I suspect most religious people have doubts. The lack of evidence and the need for programming to inculcate it into children is damning. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/62 "2009-10-22T15:11:03Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Not true - many atheists do fabricate an illogical, unsupported set of beliefs. Namely, the certitude that there is no supreme being of any kind. The existence or nonexistence of a supreme being is not falsifiable, and therefore, any decision as to its existence or nonexistence is unsupported and not achieved through logic. Disbelieving in “god” does not requires faith of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/63 "2009-10-22T15:13:20Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Or done bong hits for Thor. Did I miss the part where Thor became a stoner and turned Mjolnir into a bong? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/64 "2009-10-22T15:39:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Almost all atheists were raised in religion. Then they eventually discard the man in the sky arguments. No evidence and the requirement you should wear blinders and screw yourself into illogic to defend the belief wears people down. I don’t see arrogance. But most atheists are wondering when "believers’ will succumb to logic and the lack of evidence. I suspect most religious people have doubts. The lack of evidence and the need for programming to inculcate it into children is damning. Many religions encompass doubt, agnosticism and yes, even atheism into their frameworks. Religion isn’t a belief, it’s a tool for engaging with the world. I hope most children raised in religious households and cultures learn that asking questions is pretty much the point, although I am aware that this doesn’t always happen. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/65 "2009-10-22T16:01:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not a pitting of **Lobsang** , per se, but I am pitting the arrogance displayed in his OP found [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=536875). > > Anyone that claims to “Know the Truth” is an idiot at best, and possibly Westboro Baptist Church level crazy, too. Atheism is a belief…or lack of belief…like any other. It is either true or not true. It is certainly possible that one or more religions have some basis in reality. Nobody gets to “know” for sure until you die. If you wake up on the other side, hopefully there will be time for an “Aw, shit” before the fires of perdition claim you. > > As an Atheist, you are not better, smarter, sexier, or otherwise superior to a believer because of what you believe. You eat, sleep, shit, fuck, and breathe the same as a theist. Get over your smug superiority already. > > Nobody “knows” the ultimate answers. Life is a cosmic crap shoot, and you don’t get to roll the dice until you die, if ever. The truth in question in my OP was… “There is no God” Not “The answer to why we exist is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_” I don’t think ‘knowing’ that God doesn’t exist is arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/66 "2009-10-22T16:12:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The quote in my signature? Or another? Sorry, missed that earlier. Yes, I think that’s the quote that was floating around in my head; in any case, it captures very well the spirit of what I was trying to express. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/67 "2009-10-22T16:22:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > One might as well pitch a bitch about people who are sure that there is no such things as fairies and pixies. They do not “Know The Truth” because they haven’t proven that the wee folk can’t possibly exist, right? But there are books that mention God, and no books about pixies and fairies. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/68 "2009-10-22T16:24:22Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Many religions encompass doubt, agnosticism and yes, even atheism into their frameworks. Religion isn’t a belief, it’s a tool for engaging with the world. I hope most children raised in religious households and cultures learn that asking questions is pretty much the point, although I am aware that this doesn’t always happen. [This](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33430070/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/)girl certainly learned that it’s OK to question one’s parents religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/69 "2009-10-22T16:25:18Z")
Oh and another thing. MY thread was directed at Atheists. So my ‘the truth’ is a shortened version of “What we atheists believe to be the truth” NOT “What the truth happens to be” I know that seems like a weak excuse, but it happens to be true. I’m not arrogantly declaring the non-existence of God to be the absolute truth. I am merely refering to what we Atheists think of as ‘The truth’. I.e. “We believe God doesn’t exist” ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/70 "2009-10-22T16:43:35Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > That’s not right – the nonexistence of a supreme being is easily falsifiable, by discovering the existence of a supreme being. However, even if that weren’t the case, your conclusion would not follow, since it might still be the case that one can come to a logical decision regarding the matter – one might be able to show that the notion of a tri-omni god is incoherent, or one might craft an argument that god is necessary for the universe to exist; both certainly unlikely, but not impossible, and certainly not excluded through the alleged non-falsifiability of god’s (non-) existence. Actually, it isn’t falsifiable. If a “greater” being does reveal itself to us, then we’ll know that it exists, but we won’t be able to conclude whether or not it is a ‘supreme’ being. There’s no way to verify it as true or false. I’m not sure what a tri-omni god is, but I assume you’re referring to the Christian-specific beliefs of the supreme being - the proof or disproof of which would be irrelevant to a generic supreme being. Likewise, the argument that a god is necessary for the universe to exist is nice philosophy, but it’s not science. > [@](#): > > And again, the equivalence between the positions of belief and disbelief is simply not given – disbelief has to be the default stance, as is readily apparent to everybody when discussing the great green arkleseizure, but somehow tends to slip people’s minds when the subject is called god. If it weren’t, all explanatory hypotheses stood on equal footing, and there would be no way to decide, for instance, between the theory of universal gravitation and invisible fairies pushing things down; in short, it would be impossible to accept any explanation of anything. The default stance has to be ‘maybe. can you prove it one way or the other?’ To draw a conclusion with no evidence, just because of Occam’s Razor, is not scientifically rigorous. And hey, if somebody wants to believe there are an infinite number of very precise faeries pushing objects in the universe together at precisely the gravitational constant - well, that’s certainly one way to look at it - but so long as the faeries continue to perform with consistency, and we can’t find the Higgs Boson, who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/71 "2009-10-22T16:54:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Did I miss the part where Thor became a stoner and turned Mjolnir into a bong? Well, not 'zactly a bong, but… > [@garygnu](#): > > Obligatory link, broken for NSFW drug use: http: //i202. [Photo Storage](http://photobucket.com/albums/aa190/12shark/thor.gif) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/72 "2009-10-22T16:56:41Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Here’s a few: Bith seems to start from the assumption that belief in a god is ‘obviously wrong’, which is circular logic. There’s no counterpoint that merits a response. HMHW’s point is the same as the one I addressed just a moment ago. Czarcasm’s post may be on point for the OP, but not for mine directly. The analogy of pixies and fairies is a poor one for this argument, but following that line of thinking - I don’t believe in fairies. (Sorry, Tink.) I won’t go so far as to say that I am sure that they do not exist, because there’s no usable evidence to give me that certainty. I’m fairy-agnostic. I don’t think that makes me inherently smarter than people who believe fairies exist. I’ve never seen one, I know of nothing that requires their existence, and yet there’s all kinds of strange folklore about them that suggests even if they did exist, we might not be aware of them. So while I’m not going to leave my shoes out to be repaired, I’m not going to condescend to people who believe in them. (People who’ve claimed to /see/ them on the other hand…) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/73 "2009-10-22T16:57:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Atheism is a belief…or lack of belief…like any other. Incorrect. Religion is based on **faith** ; atheism is based on **knowledge**. That makes it distinct and separate from “any other [belief].” That doesn’t make religion absolutely for sure 100% wrong, but it means that it cannot be logically assessed. Atheism is what happens when you’re a person who chooses to only acknowledge that which can be demonstrated. Nonfalsifiable positions are, IMO, useless. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Band name? I laughed. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > The existence or nonexistence of a supreme being is not falsifiable, and therefore, any decision as to its existence or nonexistence is unsupported and not achieved through logic. The existence of an invisible floating dragon who doesn’t require sustenance, excretes and eliminates nothing, and cannot be touched but lives in the garage of my apartment building is not falsifiable, and therefore, decision as to its existence or nonexistence is unsupported and not achieved through logic. Stop thinking you’re better than me just because you refuse to believe in Mr. Smoky. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/74 "2009-10-22T17:02:51Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Disbelieving in “god” does not requires faith of any kind. I have to draw a semantic distinction here. There are three stances one can take on the existence of god. 1.) Believing he/she/it exists. 2.) Believing he/she/it doesn’t exist. 3.) None of the above. In other words, believing only that you don’t know the answer to the question. #3 is the rational proposition that best follows from the evidence. #1 and #2 are equally unsupported. Most atheists, in my experience, are #2. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/75 "2009-10-22T17:05:09Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The existence of an invisible floating dragon who doesn’t require sustenance, excretes and eliminates nothing, and cannot be touched but lives in the garage of my apartment building is not falsifiable, and therefore, decision as to its existence or nonexistence is unsupported and not achieved through logic. > > Stop thinking you’re better than me just because you refuse to believe in Mr. Smoky. Hey, I’m fine with Mr. Smoky. He and my pal Harvey can hang out. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/76 "2009-10-22T17:07:12Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I don’t believe in fairies. (Sorry, Tink.) I won’t go so far as to say that I am sure that they do not exist, because there’s no usable evidence to give me that certainty. I’m fairy-agnostic. I don’t think that makes me inherently smarter than people who believe fairies exist. I’ve never seen one, I know of nothing that requires their existence, and yet there’s all kinds of strange folklore about them that suggests even if they did exist, we might not be aware of them. Wow. So if a post in GD or GQ contained something like “…and as we know there’s no such thing as fairies”, you consider this an arrogant and unreasonable statement? Do you realize that literally any claim that can possibly be made has some microscopic chance of being wrong? Should we just erase the word “know” from the dictionary altogether? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/77 "2009-10-22T17:09:36Z")
There are three stances one can take on the existence of unicorns. 1.) Believing they exist. 2.) Believing they don’t exist. 3.) None of the above. In other words, believing only that you don’t know the answer to the question. #3 is the rational proposition that best follows from the evidence. #1 and #2 are equally unsupported. Most people who deny unicorn existence, in my experience, are #2. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/78 "2009-10-22T17:11:49Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > There are three stances one can take on the existence of unicorns. > > 1.) Believing they exist. > > 2.) Believing they don’t exist. > > 3.) None of the above. In other words, believing only that you don’t know the answer to the question. > > #3 is the rational proposition that best follows from the evidence. #1 and #2 are equally unsupported. Most people who deny unicorn existence, in my experience, are #2. IMO that is the pedantic argument. I am a 2 on the basis that it is highly reasonable to assume un-pedantically that unicorns don’t exist. Your argument is like saying “Believing my legs have not disappeared because I can’t see them under this desk - Is irrational. How can one ‘know’ that your legs are there unless you can see them” ETA: The pedantic argument is nearly always the irritatingly arrogant one. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/79 "2009-10-22T17:13:40Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Wow. > > So if a post in GD or GQ contained something like “…and as we know there’s no such thing as fairies”, you consider this an arrogant and unreasonable statement? Somewhat arrogant, but not unreasonable. I don’t consider “God doesn’t exist!” to be an unreasonable statement, but if someone /preaches/ it at me, then that’s pretty damn arrogant of them. > [@](#): > > Do you realize that literally any claim that can possibly be made has some microscopic chance of being wrong? Should we just erase the word “know” from the dictionary altogether? Not at all. For most things, we can draw reasoned conclusions because we have evidence. Going back to gravity, we know how gravity behaves. We /know/ it. If I drop an apple, it’s going to fall in a mathematically predictable way. We don’t know the /why/ of gravity - we’ve got some theories. If they find the Higgs-Boson and it behaves as expected, we’ll know the why. If not, the Higgs Boson will remain a fluttering pixie, just out of the reach of our knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708/80 "2009-10-22T17:16:54Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > IMO that is the pedantic argument. I am a 2 on the basis that it is highly reasonable to assume un-pedantically that unicorns don’t exist. > Your argument is like saying “Believing my legs have not disappeared because I can’t see them under this desk - Is irrational. How can one ‘know’ that your legs are there unless you can see them” > ETA: The pedantic argument is nearly always the irritatingly arrogant one. I’m sorry, Lobsang - are you taking issue with my original formulation that Dan is parodying with the off-kilter analogy, or his representation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-atheists-you-do-not-know-the-truth/514708.md?page=5)