# Attention Minty Green: Do you still believe that Alberto Gonzales isn't a worse AG? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858 "2007-01-21T18:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/1 "2007-01-21T18:06:14Z")
This is in GD because it is not a Pitting, just genuine curiosity about something I remembered **minty green** saying in a past thread about then AG-nominee Alberto Gonzales, and it’s at least somewhat likely that the discussion could be beyond the scope of IMHO or MPSIMS. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285749) thread, from June 2004, **minty green** notes: > [@minty green](#): > > [Quote=This Year’s Model] > > CNN is reporting that Gonzalez has the inside track. That is NOT an improvement, and may even be worse. Only time will tell, but I believe that you are wrong. That’s a personal assesment, by the way, based on my experience with and direct knowledge of Mr. Gonzalez. [/quote] Truthfully, I’m not even sure I’ve seen **minty** posting for a while, so I don’t know if he’s still here at all. But if you are here, **minty** , can you comment on this and, given recent events and testimony before Congress, tell us if Gonzales’s actions in service to this administration have surprised you, given the experience and knowledge you cited in that thread? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/2 "2007-01-21T18:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Truthfully, I’m not even sure I’ve seen **minty** posting for a while, so I don’t know if he’s still here at all. [/QUOTE] [He was here four days ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8160411&postcount=54) I think he was disbarred and has been reduced to posting about mundane topics. 🙂 Maybe you could send him a private message? so he reads this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/3 "2007-01-21T20:01:50Z")
I dunno, Harry Daugherty set a tough standard to beat. John Ashcroft did his damnedest, though, as did John Mitchell and Ed Meese before him. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/4 "2007-01-21T20:36:43Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Maybe you could send him a private message? so he reads this. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I’d forgotten that we have private messages now. I did send him one once you reminded me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/5 "2007-01-21T20:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] I dunno, Harry Daugherty set a tough standard to beat. John Ashcroft did his damnedest, though, as did John Mitchell and Ed Meese before him. [/QUOTE] Not “the worst”, but “a worse”. Thread title limitations kept it from being “a worse AG than John Ashcroft”. I do think that AGAG’s recent testimony before Congress has demonstrated a contempt for the Constitution that he and his boss both swore to defend and uphold, more so than any of Ashcroft’s actions ever did. Ashcroft tended toward the silly stupid (like covering Justice’s boob). Gonzalez started with pooh-poohing the Geneva Conventions and torture and had nowhere to go but down from there. **minty** stated in another thread on the subject around the same time that the memo in which the Geneva Conventions were described as “quaint” was written _for_ Gonzalez, not _by_ him, implying that it wasn’t how he really felt on the subject but rather something that a staffer injected. It’s my opinion that AGAG has amply verified that the general tone of the memo was his through his testimony. \*Testimony may be the wrong term, as I don’t believe anyone’s been questioned under oath yet. Not sure what the correct technical legal term would be for unsworn interrogation. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/6 "2007-01-21T20:42:18Z")
Are you not a big fan of Alberto Gonzales’ take on habeas corpus? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/7 "2007-01-21T20:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] “a worse AG than John Ashcroft” [/quote] Okay. I don’t see anything to choose, really. Gonzalez may be more of a principle-free toady, Ashcroft more inclined to put religious zealotry above the Constitution, but this thread is like debating if smallpox or bubonic plague was the worse disease. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/8 "2007-01-21T21:06:11Z")
You should have quoted my explanation in post # ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/9 "2007-01-21T21:09:54Z")
Dear God! He’s been shot in mid-post! Friggin’ terrist! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/10 "2007-01-21T21:21:56Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Dear God! He’s been shot in mid-post! Friggin’ terrist! [/QUOTE] I blame Clinton. I leave it to the reader to decide which one. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/11 "2007-01-21T21:22:31Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] You should have quoted my explanation in post # [/QUOTE] If there was a follow-up explanation, it wasn’t omitted from my OP intentionally. I just missed it when I was mining the search function for the posted quote. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/12 "2007-01-21T21:27:04Z")
You might have quoted my explanation in posts 104 & 105 of that thread: > [@me](#): > > He’s a fundamentally decent person, conservative by temperment but definitely not an Ashcroft-style fundie zealot. The torture memo was very uncharacteristic, and for that reason I suspect that it was written as a theoretical exercise rather than as something intended to grant legal blessing to serious torture; nevertheless, I look forward to hearing his explanation (and I believe he should offer one, despite the attorney-client privilege) during his confirmation hearing. I have never heard him utter a word that gave me pause for concern, even though I would obviously disagree with him on any number of issues. > > He is very much Bush’s confidante, which I believe (and this is not based on any kind of personal knowledge) has led him to give Bush legal advice that enabled him to accomplish things that should not have been accomplished. A bit of a deal with the devil, to my way of thinking, but I doubt Gonzalez shares that assessment. He is an advocate for his client, and that is something he enjoys doing. He also seems to prefer the activity and challenge of being that advocate to the relative isolation of being a judge. I will say, however, that when I caught up with him briefly at a function in Austin a few months ago, he looked like he’d aged ten years in the last three. > > And sorry, but you’re not getting anything more specific. > [@me](#): > > Put it this way: Al will not give a shit about exposed nipples on Justice Department statuary. Still sounds mostly right to me, particularly the “deal with the devil” bit. However, I completely retract the “fundamentally decent person” comment. The depths of unabashed evil that the Bush Admin has embraced, with Gonzalez’s rubber-stamp blessing, makes that comment fully inoperative. Gonzales is, above all else, Bush’s legal water-carrier. As such, he has given pseudo-legal cover to every single thing that Bush has wanted to do. Ashcroft did the exact same thing, if you recall. The difference is that Gonzalez is not simultaneously pursuing a fundamentalist nutcase agenda of his own. Apart from the bullshit associated with the alleged “war on terror” and the Rovian ideological purges, the DOJ has functioned relatively well under Gonzalez’s tenure, with far fewer distracting crusades on fundie/wingnut pet causes. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/13 "2007-01-21T21:28:19Z")
And of course, changing “should” to “might” was the last thing I edited. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/14 "2007-01-21T21:43:27Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] I’d forgotten that we have private messages now. I did send him one once you reminded me. [/QUOTE] Didn’t even know we have private messages, much less how to find them. I was just passing through on the way to see if there was a new BSG thread in Cafe Society. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/15 "2007-01-21T21:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] Still sounds mostly right to me, particularly the “deal with the devil” bit. However, I completely retract the “fundamentally decent person” comment. The depths of unabashed evil that the Bush Admin has embraced, with Gonzalez’s rubber-stamp blessing, makes that comment fully inoperative. [/QUOTE] As I said above, I missed the follow-up explanation when I was looking for the posted quote. My apologies for that. And the above answers my OP for me, too. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/16 "2007-01-21T21:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] Didn’t even know we have private messages, much less how to find them. I was just passing through on the way to see if there was a new BSG thread in Cafe Society. 🙂 [/QUOTE] See, I _told_ you. You heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/17 "2007-01-21T23:11:27Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] Didn’t even know we have private messages, much less how to find them. I was just passing through on the way to see if there was a new BSG thread in Cafe Society. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Well, now you’ve got them turned off, so I can’t send you one to tell you that you are now also able to EDIT your posts within 5 min. of making the post. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/18 "2007-01-21T23:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] Didn’t even know we have private messages, much less how to find them. I was just passing through on the way to see if there was a new BSG thread in Cafe Society. 🙂 [/QUOTE] HEY! You think this is some kind of hallway? Wipe your feet before you track that stuff through here! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/19 "2007-01-22T15:04:05Z")
I just hate his smirk as he explains to yet another congressman nor senator that he is not telling them a damn thing. His we are above you and you can not question us attitude ,pisses me off. I am far from being able to be reasonable about him. He has a staff spending thousands of man hours looking for loopholes to justify his squishing of any boundaries which fairness and precedence may have set. He has no sense of shame . ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858/20 "2007-01-22T17:37:20Z")
Two things **minty** said made me think. “He is an advocate for his client, and that is something he enjoys doing.” “Gonzales is, above all else, Bush’s legal water-carrier. As such, he has given pseudo-legal cover to every single thing that Bush has wanted to do.” I don’t see the job of Attorney General of the US as the President’s legal lap dog. The Attorney General represents the United States and the US Constitution, not some fantatical PResident with delusions about the extent of his power. In that role, Gonzalez has been atrocious. His stance on torture and the NSA program especially prove to me he is unconcerned with the actual Constitution and law, and more concerned with being Bush’s lickspittle. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attention-minty-green-do-you-still-believe-that-alberto-gonzales-isnt-a-worse-ag/388858.md?page=2)