# Attitude Problem **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 25, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197 "2006-08-25T14:29:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/1 "2006-08-25T14:29:20Z")
Attitude Problem **The fundamental difference between the attitudes of modern humans as regards the surrounding world is this: “for modern, scientific man [and woman] the phenomenal world is primarily an “It”; for ancient—and also primitive –man [and woman] it is a “Thou”.** Primitive humans started with what is called ‘speculative thought’, which is considered to be–direct knowledge without evident rational thought or inference that sometimes exists only in the imagination. Speculative thought transcends experience but only as a means to clarify experience. Speculative thought is more than fantasy in that it never breaks entirely from experience. It might be said to be “once removed” from direct experience. For us moderns to comprehend ‘Thou’ we might think of our experience when we confront unexpectedly another creature. At first perception our response is essentially passive and receptive. There is an impression that is direct, emotional, and inarticulate. This is a form of experience which we share with all animals. We see this when we watch a movie when the hiker encounters the coyote suddenly, we see and recognize why it is so that both parties pause in a moment of ‘shock and awe’ (with less emphasis on dread and more on receptivity). When we meet someone new suddenly there is a moment of receptivity, likewise between all animals. When encountering a fellow creature “a man or an animal is essentially passive, whatever his subsequent action may turn out to be. For at first he receives an impression. This type of knowledge is therefore direct, emotional, and inarticulate.” ‘Thou’ revels its individuality, all experience of ‘Thou’ is very unique –‘Thou’ is not confronted with intellectual detachment, as when we encounter an object, but is experienced as life confronting life involving every faculty wherein both parties share in a reciprocal relationship. Every thought, act, and feeling is subordinate to this experience. All experience of ‘Thou’ is highly individual; primitive man’s accounts of such an experience as action and must take the form of a story–myth instead of analysis. Martin Buber describes the ‘I-It’ relationship with the world as a one of separation; wherein the person and the world are completely separate entities. The ‘I-Thou’ relationship is one of intimate and substantively integrated wholeness. I think that the ‘I-Thou’ may be an important new way of our contemplating the world. Do you think that such a relationship might lead us to a solution to our environmental problems? Quotes and ideas from “The Intellectual Adventure of Ancient Man” by Frankfort, Wilson, Jacobson, and Irwin. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/2 "2006-08-25T15:17:10Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > We see this when we watch a movie when the hiker encounters the coyote suddenly, we see and recognize why it is so that both parties pause in a moment of ‘shock and awe’ (with less emphasis on dread and more on receptivity). When we meet someone new suddenly there is a moment of receptivity, likewise between all animals. And then the coyote thinks, “Fuck this, I’m hungry” and chews your face off. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/3 "2006-08-25T15:27:53Z")
I like bacon. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/4 "2006-08-25T15:36:21Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > Attitude Problem > > [Martin Buber describes the ‘I-It’ relationship with the world as a one of separation; wherein the person and the world are completely separate entities. The ‘I-Thou’ relationship is one of intimate and substantively integrated wholeness. > > I think that the ‘I-Thou’ may be an important new way of our contemplating the world. Do you think that such a relationship might lead us to a solution to our environmental problems? > > Quotes and ideas from “The Intellectual Adventure of Ancient Man” by Frankfort, Wilson, Jacobson, and Irwin. I can see how this may be reflected in practical every day life. I jump from a plane and there is an “I-It” relationship between me and the earth. I deploy my parachute and if it fails, there is a rapid transitional “OH SHIT!” relationship which culminates ultimately with a substantive integrated “I - Thou” wholeness of me and the earth. Yeah. I can see the OP’s point. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/5 "2006-08-25T15:37:24Z")
My attitude problem is a slight list to the right, with sort of twist in the counter-clockwise direction. Of course that’s not just a humble opinion, it’s an observation; so I’m unsure whether it belongs in this forum. I can _add_ an opinion: My opinion is that this attitude problem is fundamentally related to the postural compensating positions I assume due to a combination of the layout of my workspace and my need for a new eyglasses prescription. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/6 "2006-08-25T15:39:02Z")
Of course, that’s really more of a hypothesis… Hell with it. I’m not cut out for this IMHO stuff. Back to the Pit for me. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/7 "2006-08-25T16:04:51Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > I think that the ‘I-Thou’ may be an important new way of our contemplating the world. Do you think that such a relationship might lead us to a solution to our environmental problems? Nope. I think some dude’s creative bullshit has zero to contribute to any modern debate, whether a policy debate like our concerns over various environmental problems, or an intellectual debate. Anyone who claims to be able to summarize the differences between ancient and modern humans - and who does so in such ridiculously simplistic terms (“I-it” and “I-thou” - it would be funny if I didn’t think the author actually meant it) - clearly has no understanding of empirical reasoning. We already have plenty of people debating the environment who don’t understand how to reason. We have little need for more of them. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/8 "2006-08-25T16:05:20Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > And then the coyote thinks, “Fuck this, I’m hungry” and chews your face off. Then, at night, the ice weasels come. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/9 "2006-08-25T16:20:04Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > I think that the ‘I-Thou’ may be an important new way of our contemplating the world. It’s not new. Martin Buber wrote _I and Thou_ in 1923. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/10 "2006-08-25T18:42:59Z")
My coyote’s breath smells like human face. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/11 "2006-08-25T21:47:15Z")
My boot smells like human face. Forever. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/12 "2006-08-26T01:28:57Z")
I don’t know about solving environmental problems, but _I_ read that and immediately pictured _thou_ hitting “Submit Reply” whilst you pursed your lips and laid a finger on your chin dimple as _thou_ "Hmmm"ed pensively in a pseudo-intellectual posture. That, at least, made _it_ worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/13 "2006-08-27T04:01:37Z")
And Buber is misunderstood anew… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/14 "2006-08-27T07:28:51Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > It’s not new. Martin Buber wrote _I and Thou_ in 1923. I guess it was not taken too seriously at that time because I do not remember anyone talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/15 "2006-08-27T07:54:10Z")
‘Ancient’ Pythagoras or a ‘modern’ rioter would not fit this description. Mystic waffle is not the way to tackle global warming (or anything else). ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/16 "2006-08-27T08:25:19Z")
Are mystic waffles anything like Mystic Pizza? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/17 "2006-08-27T08:40:09Z")
> [@glee](#): > > ‘Ancient’ Pythagoras or a ‘modern’ rioter would not fit this description. > > Mystic waffle is not the way to tackle global warming (or anything else). Consideration of different frames of reference from humans towards the planet is "mystic waffle? How so? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/18 "2006-08-27T18:40:21Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > Consideration of different frames of reference from humans towards the planet is "mystic waffle? How so? I’m all for frames of reference such as: - politicians backed financially by oil companies - GreenPeace members - Amazon logging companies I just don’t think the OP understands what he is trying to say, nor is he interested in debating it. (I think he must be either very young or very old.) ---
**Author:** ![manx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@manx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manx)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/19 "2006-08-29T10:59:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I deploy my parachute and if it fails, there is a rapid transitional “OH SHIT!” relationship which culminates ultimately with a substantive integrated “I - Thou” wholeness of me and the earth. That would be 'I - OW", surely? ---
**Author:** ![ColonelDax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@ColonelDax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColonelDax)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197/20 "2006-08-29T11:05:16Z")
I burning your coyote. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-problem/370197.md?page=2)