# Attitude towards computer games **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322 "2008-12-31T05:18:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/41 "2008-12-31T20:23:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > As vices go to escape life, trash lit isn’t going to kill your liver, your library will provide your fix without you needing to resort to stealing, and overall, it isn’t a horrible thing. But anything that you are using to escape living your own life isn’t the healthiest thing. This. Not all people that smoke pot are stereotypical potheads, but the pasttime does lend itself to a certain inertia and detachment from day-to-day and family activities that is not healthy. I see the same behavior in some gamers. I love trashy novels, sewing, and my primetime trash TV. In the four hours I am home and awake every night after work I can pay my bills, exercise, cook dinner, catch a show and/or sew. I ask my husband about his day and look after our kid. Pastimes are just that. They shouldn’t make up the whole of your non-work time, or you have issues. Some people don’t realize how much time they put into gaming. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/42 "2008-12-31T20:29:43Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > But specifically, I think the phrase ‘addict’ gets thrown around far too often when discussing video games. It’s simply not useful to take a specific medical term and toss it at anyone who plays games regularly (for any amount of time, including the vague ‘dedicating their life to it’). I hate being called an ‘addict’ even more than I hate being called a ‘loser’. I didn’t post the link, but maybe I should have, but the AMA specifically rejected the notion of video game addiction because it has such a vague definition (from “video gaming is weird and playing at all is obviously addiction” to “plays more than I think is healthy” to “plays several hours a day” to “plays every waking non-working hour of the day”). I also have to ask, when did professional chess players become respected members of society? They are NERDS and I say that as a card carrying member of the video game dork society. > [@Atomicflea](#): > > This. Not all people that smoke pot are stereotypical potheads, but the pasttime does lend itself to a certain inertia and detachment from day-to-day and family activities that is not healthy. I see the same behavior in some gamers. As has been pointed out by several people in this thread, just no. “Gamers” shouldn’t have any connotations of slothful laziness and if it does, that’s your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/43 "2008-12-31T20:33:46Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > As has been pointed out by several people in this thread, just no. “Gamers” shouldn’t have any connotations of slothful laziness and if it does, that’s your problem, not mine. I didn’t imply that it did. I specifically stated that I have seen the behavior in some gamers. I’m not equating, and I would ask that you refrain from being needlessly ad hominem unless I merit it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/44 "2008-12-31T20:40:24Z")
> [@Atomicflea](#): > > I didn’t imply that it did. I specifically stated that I have seen the behavior in some gamers. I’m not equating, and I would ask that you refrain from being needlessly ad hominem unless I merit it. But seeing “the behavior” in some gamers doesn’t mean anything. It’s especially insulting to compare it to _drug addiction_ because drug addiction has a very observable chemical component. “Video game addiction” is a meaningless term. My brother-in-law really loves cars. So much so that he spends a lot of time in his garage working on them and showing them off to other people and discussing them with other car enthusiasts. Should I be worried about him too? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/45 "2008-12-31T21:10:17Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But seeing “the behavior” in some gamers doesn’t mean anything. It’s especially insulting to compare it to _drug addiction_ because drug addiction has a very observable chemical component. “Video game addiction” is a meaningless term. > > My brother-in-law really loves cars. So much so that he spends a lot of time in his garage working on them and showing them off to other people and discussing them with other car enthusiasts. Should I be worried about him too? I still think you’re ignoring the reality that video games are, in practice, quite different from other hobbies. They are very fun, and after a few initial cost outlays, each additional hour of playing is basically free. Unlike golf, or wrenching on cars, or basketball, it’s trivial for anyone who enjoys a game to play it for a good percentage of every day. And this happens, quite frequently. I’ve seen more friends and family members annoyed by someone’s excessive gaming than by any other major hobby. Now, is it fair that “gamer” automatically conjures up images of some loser playing WoW for 90 hours a week in his mom’s basement? No. Is every gamer a loser? Obviously not. Are the majority of them? No, especially not now. But the OP didn’t ask “Are gamers losers,” or anything of the sort. He asked “Why aren’t lifelong gamers held in high regard,” and the answer I’m trying to give is that nearly _everyone_ knows at least 1 person who self identifies as a big gamer who’s friends and family complain about his/her gaming habit. I personally know several people that currently fit that bill. That’s why it’s not seen as a noble effort. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/46 "2008-12-31T21:27:31Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > My brother-in-law really loves cars. So much so that he spends a lot of time in his garage working on them and showing them off to other people and discussing them with other car enthusiasts. Should I be worried about him too? I don’t have enough information to comment. Does his hobby cause impede him spending time with his wife and children? Is he able to perform well at his job? Has it adversely affted his health? Does it negatively impact his relationships? Again, many have hobbies or practices that are healthy, including some gamers. Some don’t. My husband’s a gamer, and he’s productive and affectionate. Several girlfriends are gamers, and they are professionals and good parents. This doesn’t mean that there don’t exist people that unfortunately fall into an obsessive behavior that happens by way of gaming. For the record, I also read comic books, but I don’t think I get much respect for it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/47 "2008-12-31T22:03:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > On the other hand, nobody complains about how people who play chess all the time to the detriment of their family, or that so and so is always out on the basketball court, or is painting AGAIN. Probably because those activities, by their nature, discourage people doing them for more than a few hours at a time, while video games can easily suck people into spending 8 to 12 hours a day on them. The difference between video games and the things you mentioned is that video games happen in the virtual world, while everything else you mentioned happens in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/48 "2008-12-31T23:16:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > That’s … that’s _beautiful._ My sister was better than that at “Dr. Mario.” You had to see it to believe it. I would not have thought a human being capable of such speed and accuracy. She isn’t addicted to video games - she plays a little WoW now, but that’s about it, and not too much of that. But for whatever reason, when Dr. Mario was on the NES, she was like a cyborg. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/49 "2008-12-31T23:53:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I also have to ask, when did professional chess players become respected members of society? They are NERDS and I say that as a card carrying member of the video game dork society. LOL I’ve been thinking the same thing. People, go watch _Searching for Bobby Fisher_ again. Chess players are the dweebs that other gaming dweebs make fun of. > [@Atomicflea](#): > > I didn’t imply that it did. I specifically stated that I have seen the behavior in some gamers. I’m not equating, and I would ask that you refrain from being needlessly ad hominem unless I merit it. Yes, you’ve seen the behavior in some gamers - and from there extrapolated that that “the pastime” as a whole lends itself to inertia and detachment _even though_ you apparently know a whole flock of gamers who are healthy, involved individuals. So why would you characterize the activity by the negatives you’ve seen instead of the positive examples including your husband? Or to touch on another thing you mentioned - why would you bring up all your hobbies and how much you can do in your four free hours and then attempt to contrast this with people who game for a hobby? Sure, it’s true - some people are over involved in their gaming. Hell, I’m probably one of them by most standards. But it’s a mischaracterization to define gaming by the problem few. The video game industry is bigger than the movie business. It’s not a niche hobby for oddballs. It’s everyday life for most people under thirty. Like any group this large some fraction will be troubled people. They aren’t troubled _because_ they play games - they’re troubled _and_ they play games. Defining the experience around those people is ignoring the reality of the ubiquity of gaming for the mass population. BTW, I respect your choice to read comic books. I’d be making pretty much this same argument in a “why don’t comic books get no respect thread?”. 🙂 > [@stearonz](#): > > the answer I’m trying to give is that nearly everyone knows at least 1 person who self identifies as a big gamer who’s friends and family complain about his/her gaming habit. I personally know several people that currently fit that bill. That’s why it’s not seen as a noble effort. That’s sort of a circular answer though. It’s like saying “gamers are not held in high regard because some people don’t hold gaming in high regard and find it annoying.” Ultimately, other peoples’ annoyance is merely a reflection of their own personal low opinion of gaming - not gaming itself. And I disagree with your contention that nobody ever says anything negative about the long hours other hobbies demand. As mentioned previously, “sports widows” is a cliche for a reason. Every hobby lends itself to abuse including reading and exercising music practice, to name a few. I would also disagree that gaming draws people in because it’s inexpensive. If you play an MMO and nothing else, then yeah it’s $15 a month. But the real heavy duty gamers drop hundreds of bucks a month on it. Some of those people change their games & gear the way Blair Waldorf changes hair ribbons. “Gotta catch them all!” you know. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/50 "2009-01-01T02:53:19Z")
I think watching athletics triggers a whole different part of the brain for admiration in viewing humans, there’s something primal about watching physical struggle. As far as Chess, well, lets be serious, no one watches people playing chess and I doubt being good at it will get you far in a bar pickup. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/51 "2009-01-01T03:33:09Z")
Some chess matches are televised. I’ve seen tape of the Karpov - Kasparov matches. I know the Fischer - Spassky matches were taped but I don’t remember if they were broadcast at the time of the event or if it was just for the Federation archives. (And Fischer is the correct spelling, I dropped the ‘c’ earlier.) I don’t really mean to bag on chess players, I was just teasing my fellow gamers. I don’t have the patience for chess myself but I admire the clockwork with which the masters approach the game. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/52 "2009-01-01T03:49:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > As far as Chess, well, lets be serious, no one watches people playing chess and I doubt being good at it will get you far in a bar pickup. Apparently you haven’t heard of the Internet. :smack: All major tournaments are broadcast live, attracting world-wide interest. Kasparov v Deep Blue achieved 10 million hits daily. Kasparov v the Rest of the World involved over 50,000 players from 75 countries. Since the leading players are all millionaires, they don’t need bar pickups. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/53 "2009-01-01T03:51:36Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > As far as Chess, well, lets be serious, no one watches people playing chess and I doubt being good at it will get you far in a bar pickup. I was going to say that I think most people’s experiences of watching people play Chess probably comes from the pre-title sequence of _From Russia With Love_. Then again, Darts (of all things) and Poker are now “Professional” sports with dedicated followings and broadcasting on TV. I can’t imagine it will be too long before we see “Extreme Chess” on ESPN. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/54 "2009-01-01T11:29:52Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I guess my question is, how is that different from someone who watches sports too much or reads too much or watches too much TV? I’d say it relates to how it contributes to, detracts from, or substitutes for this thing we call “having a life.” Bobby Fischer was a brilliant chessplayer, but he’s always been an object of ridicule as well as admiration because of his lack of a healthy life away from the chessboard. Someone who fills most of their spare time doing crosswords or sudoku - well, there’s a limit to how much these activities can really enrich your life. Do them too much, and they’re a substitute for having a life. Watching sports really kind of depends. The way a lot of guys interact with the world, watching sports is a social activity, and provides part of the foundation for their social interactions, by giving them something to talk about that’s an easy starter subject. Sitting at home alone, watching sports on TV for hours on end, would be a whole 'nother thing. I’m in no position to say much about video games, since I’m in my 50s and have missed the last 20 years’ worth of video game development. Someone who spends three hours a day playing solitaire or Minesweeper on their computer isn’t really different from the person who spends three hours a day doing crosswords or sudoku, but that isn’t the sort of gaming under discussion here. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/55 "2009-01-01T12:23:49Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > While I think the phrase “wrong video games” has some argument, let’s be honest here and consider the _everyday meaning_ of video games to the people that criticize them: 1st-person shoot-em up games, space invaders, etc. These are not frontal-lobe type of games. Well, define First Person Shooters. Modern FPS’s have become… somewhat complicated. If I play Battlefield 2 (which rarely happens): Okay, there’s a sniper tower in the middle which has a very, very good vantage point, but points D, C, and F consistently have lookouts that instagib anyone that gets in there, if we assassinate a couple of them and put claymore mines at point E we may be able to force them to reposition giving us setup time. After setting up and taking out a sufficient number of targets at point A we may be able to secure that helicopter we had that crashed and flying to point B after a well placed artillary strike may allow us to pull off this match yet! Oh shit! A tank just came into our base \*instantly recalculates entire paragraph." I do that several times a MINUTE. Now I admit deathmatch Unreal games are a little less intensive, but knowing popular map positions, good counter-routers, weapon combos and such are a big part, reflexes are nice… but once you get into middle-tier gameplay (Im nowhere near upper/tournament tier) they become significantly-less important and the meta-game comes out. Hell, fighting games, which often have a reputation by non-gamers as being the “meathead jock” games (probably because of the arcade bullies and such) have the most complicated technical jargon around. I can barely follow Super Smash Bros conversations. We’re talking about people who do frame-by-frame analysis of character movesets in different situations, as well as inane names and shorthand for various complex formulas and “bugs that became necessary to win” such as 'Wavedashing" and “L-Cancel” and whatnot that randomly influences the game. For fun. Every day. And they’re not handed the code either, these guys have to effectively reverse engineer the game’s code (or at least formulas) by playing it and discussing it to play effectively, if it wasn’t for social stigma these guys could probably go to a prestigious university and present a viable undergrad thru masters study course just on the art of gaming. The only games that really aren’t complex are family games like “Wii Carnival.” Though I’m not certain enough to wager on this point, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if a seasoned Starcraft or Street Fighter Grand Champion took more decisions/calculations/considerations into account per MATCH than a GM Chess player does in a quarter-bracket of a tournament (I’m not willing to say the whole thing). The one thing I’ve found to combat this is that matches get a lot more predictable at higher levels due to “optimized build orders” and such, but it’s still a lot to consider. [Everything Bad is Good for You](http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Bad-Good-Steven-Johnson/dp/B000O17CYM) has a section on gaming that described the simplest problem solving route to one of the simplest puzzles in Zelda Wind Waker (which is almost universally considered EASY as far as Zelda games go). I think the nested list actually manages to fill a page and a half. It’s a great book, by the way, I’d recommend at least the video game section to anyone interested in the complexity of modern video games who’s been “out of the loop.”(and the rest isn’t bad either) Anyway, before I write a novel here, I think the stigma is that a lot of people can’t really relate, yes games are really, really popular now, I know the statistics. But the thing is, watching a GM Korean Starcraft player throw down his optimized build order and deploy 17 strategies and counter-maneuvers in the confines of 22 minutes leaves even seasoned gamers going “wait… what just happened?” Football and running are easy “move fast” or “get the ball into the end-zone” are something anything can see themselves doing, even if they suck at it. Even as an aspiring game developer and a player myself I can’t force myself to slog through high end tournaments, they just don’t feel relevant in the same way, I just can’t see myself doing it in the same way I can see myself running a marathon (well, I hate watching sports too, I’m more of a “doer” than a “watcher” but my point still stands). ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/56 "2009-01-01T12:36:54Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Though I’m not certain enough to wager on this point, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if a seasoned Starcraft or Street Fighter Grand Champion took more decisions/calculations/considerations into account per MATCH than a GM Chess player does in a quarter-bracket of a tournament (I’m not willing to say the whole thing). It would surprise me. A typical middle game chess position has about 30 legal moves for each side. International players typically aim to analyse 4 moves ahead (for each side). This means there are about 30_30_30_30_30_30_30_30 positions involved. That’s about 6.5_10^11 positions to assesss. And that’s just for a single move in a 40 move game. ---
**Author:** ![Lightning\_Tallulah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lightning\_Tallulah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightning_Tallulah)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/57 "2009-01-01T12:53:13Z")
there’s nowhere near as much motor skills/hand eye co-ordination involved in chess as there is in video games. Anyone knows that- so at least video games are probly more exciting and entertaining, but everybody isn’t like that- some people wanna sit around all day and act proper/behave; these are the people who don’t like video games and think they’re bad on the adolescent population. Too much video games does detract from reality a little bit in my book, though. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/58 "2009-01-01T12:59:43Z")
> [@Lightning\_Tallulah](#): > > there’s nowhere near as much motor skills/hand eye co-ordination involved in chess as there is in video games. Anyone knows that- so at least video games are probly more exciting and entertaining, but everybody isn’t like that- some people wanna sit around all day and act proper/behave; these are the people who don’t like video games and think they’re bad on the adolescent population. Too much video games does detract from reality a little bit in my book, though. There’s nowhere near as much calculation in video games as there is in chess. Anyone knows that. :smack: Who are these people who want to ‘sit around all day and act proper/behave’? Could they be … adults? :eek: As for not liking computer games, I’m an internationally ranked chess player, but spend far more time playing Heroes 3, Civilisation 4 and Colonisation. And of course roleplaying. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/59 "2009-01-01T14:08:55Z")
> [@glee](#): > > It would surprise me. > > A typical middle game chess position has about 30 legal moves for each side. > International players typically aim to analyse 4 moves ahead (for each side). > This means there are about 30_30_30_30_30_30_30_30 positions involved. > That’s about 6.5_10^11 positions to assesss. What makes you think that _anyone_, let alone international players, would use such an inefficient search method? Just because a move is legal does not mean that it has merit, and in many cases it would be reasonable to assume this without the need for an 8-deep search of every branch leading from that move. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322/60 "2009-01-01T14:41:57Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Apparently you haven’t heard of the Internet. :smack: All major tournaments are broadcast live, attracting world-wide interest. > Kasparov v Deep Blue achieved 10 million hits daily. > Kasparov v the Rest of the World involved over 50,000 players from 75 countries. Those were special cases and are more anagolous to a televised game show than a real professional chess match. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attitude-towards-computer-games/479322.md?page=4)