# Attn all pedants: 1868 Punctuation question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317 "2015-02-10T18:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/1 "2015-02-10T18:48:32Z")
This is a question only a pedant could love, but what better place to bring it? I have always been super-conscious of punctuation and spelling mistakes, especially extra spaces. With proportional spacing, sometimes those are hard to spot. Examples: Where is the store ? (space before question mark) Today is the first ; nay , the last , day of your life . (unnecessary spaces before each punctuation) This isn’t the style now. In modern commercial publications (books, mags, newspapers) these almost never occur. But I was looking over a magazine from 1868, [The Overland Monthly,](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moajrnl/ahj1472.1-01.004/293:1?page=root;size=100;view=image) and spotted a consistency in the _Railroad_ article – all semicolons, question marks and exclamation marks were preceded by a space, but commas and periods were not. Was this the way punctuation worked in the 19th Century? Or is this just a bastard document and not representative of the period? ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/2 "2015-02-10T19:00:06Z")
I have quite a few 19th century books and I don’t recall the use of spaces before punctuation in any of them. I’m not sure any of them are as old as 1868 however. I’d have to check. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/3 "2015-02-10T19:25:19Z")
I pulled 5 books at random from the 1800’s. All had a single space before a colon, semicolon, and question mark. No space before a comma or period. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/4 "2015-02-10T19:40:48Z")
> [@newme](#): > > I pulled 5 books at random from the 1800’s. All had a single space before a colon, semicolon, and question mark. No space before a comma or period. Interesting, so it looks like that was the style. What’s the latest volume you have with that kind of punctuation? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/5 "2015-02-10T19:42:41Z")
[I find this reference](http://www.pgdp.net/c/faq/olddoc14.html): > [@](#): > > For example, typesetters in the 1700’s & 1800’s often inserted a ¾ths space before punctuation such as a semicolon or comma. But I have yet to find a reference for the statement itself. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/6 "2015-02-10T20:23:49Z")
I’m guessing the space had to do with the fact that the punctuation could get blurry and run into the word after enough ink-overs on old-fashioned had-set presses. Leave a space, and the punctuation was more distinct. Also, typewriters usually had punctuation on a key that struck center, just like each letter did. The result was that the punctuation looked a little bit separated from the last word. That was why a lot of people thought typing looked better if you had two spaces before each sentence-- it made the punctuation that finished a sentence even closer to that sentence than to the following one, by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/7 "2015-02-10T20:32:48Z")
[Fahren nur mit geschlossenem Dach !](http://www.bus-ok.de/Aufkleber-Fahren-nur-mit-geschlossenem-Dach) c. 1974 ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/8 "2015-02-10T20:53:25Z")
I wonder if this was done for handwritten documents too. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/9 "2015-02-10T21:02:21Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I wonder if this was done for handwritten documents too. Wikipedia has a copy of the Declaration of Independence from 1823. It’s not consistent, but there are MANY cases of space before punctuation. Curious that I never noticed it before. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/10 "2015-02-10T21:59:48Z")
I’ve been looking at some Canadian statutes from the 1860s and 1880s, and they follow the pattern of spaces before colons and semi-colons. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/11 "2015-02-10T23:04:14Z")
Older newspapers often added a space before a semi-colon or colon. Drives OCR readers insane. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/12 "2015-02-11T00:50:56Z")
Most British printed works until just after the Second World War kept a space before ? or !, as do I. It’s just better. Spacing before the common punctuation marks occurred, but mainly in arty fiction publishers ( think Bloomsbury ), the same sort of publishers who fancied curled back 'f’s or odd looking 's’s, particularly in poetry. Some even had spaces after or before " or ', as in: _" That’s fine. " said the colonel, " Deacon Chalmers said to me ’ Colonel, the shay is laid-up. ’ "_ From Wikipedia, **[History of sentence spacing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sentence_spacing)**: _With the advent of the typewriter in the late 19th century, French and English typists adopted approximations of standard spacing practices to fit the limitations of the typewriter itself. French typists used a single space between sentences, consistent with the typeset French spacing technique, whereas English typists used a double space._ - French spacing inserted spaces around most punctuation marks, but single-spaced after sentences, colons, and semicolons.\* - English spacing removed spaces around most punctuation marks, but double-spaced after sentences, colons, and semicolons.\* _These approximations were taught and used as the standard typing techniques in French and English-speaking countries. For example, T. S. Eliot typed rather than wrote the manuscript for his classic The Waste Land between 1920 and 1922, and used only English spacing throughout: double-spaced sentences_ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/13 "2015-02-11T01:06:16Z")
I forgot to mention that the French version of the Canadian statutes i was looking at did not have the spaces before colons and semi-colons. That’s consistent with the Wikipedia article. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/14 "2015-02-11T01:54:33Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Most British printed works until just after the Second World War kept a space before ? or !, as do I. It’s just better. > > Spacing before the common punctuation marks occurred, but mainly in arty fiction publishers ( think Bloomsbury ), the same sort of publishers who fancied curled back 'f’s or odd looking 's’s, particularly in poetry. > > Some even had spaces after or before " or ', as in: _" That’s fine. " said the colonel, " Deacon Chalmers said to me ’ Colonel, the shay is laid-up. ’ "_ > From Wikipedia, **[History of sentence spacing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sentence_spacing)**: > _With the advent of the typewriter in the late 19th century, French and English typists adopted approximations of standard spacing practices to fit the limitations of the typewriter itself. French typists used a single space between sentences, consistent with the typeset French spacing technique, whereas English typists used a double space._ > > - French spacing inserted spaces around most punctuation marks, but single-spaced after sentences, colons, and semicolons.\* > > - English spacing removed spaces around most punctuation marks, but double-spaced after sentences, colons, and semicolons.\* > > _These approximations were taught and used as the standard typing techniques in French and English-speaking countries. For example, T. S. Eliot typed rather than wrote the manuscript for his classic The Waste Land between 1920 and 1922, and used only English spacing throughout: double-spaced sentences_ Typing conventions have nothing to do with printing conventions. It was standard in the U.S. to use two spaces after sentences on all manuscripts, but no one in the 20th century would ever allow that in the finished typeset work. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/15 "2015-02-11T09:29:58Z")
If you bother to read the Wikipedia link you will see it is discussing movable type printing conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/16 "2015-02-11T15:44:09Z")
I was referring to the section that referenced T. S. Eliot’s typing. That might have been English convention but it was not American convention. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-all-pedants-1868-punctuation-question/712317/17 "2015-02-13T08:03:44Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > [I find this reference](http://www.pgdp.net/c/faq/olddoc14.html) Interesting to find a page I developed a dozen years ago given as a cite on SMDB!