# Attn circumcised: your mother is likely a sex offender **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278 "2012-07-15T04:51:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/161 "2012-07-21T08:42:35Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The relationship in the Tran case is lovers, not parent-child. Yup. I think this is your only argument, to show that the ‘sexual’ part of the first degree sexual assault charge derives from the relationship and not the nature of the crime. But of course giving birth is about as sexual as it gets First of all, what a weird case to try to compare to circumcision. I actually don’t remember that case or know much about it, but I’d say the fact that these people were lovers and not parent-child does change the situation substantially. Giving birth is not sexual except in the sense that reproduction is an end result of sex, and if you want to go down that route we’d have to say that pretty much everything is sexual, since reproduction is pretty much central to the human condition. Attempting to describe the relationship between parent and child as sexual or equate it with a sexual relationship is quite a stretch. An assault like the Tran case clearly has the intention of punishing the victim for some kind of sexual indiscretion (Lorena Bobbitt cut of her husbands penis because he had tried to rape her earlier that night, IIRC). No matter how strongly you feel about circumcising a baby, I can’t imagine that anyone could argue that the parent was attempting to punish their baby for some kind of transgression the baby had committed. Do you believe that intent matters not at all? Do you think that if you assaulted someone and chopped their leg off, you’d get charged with exactly the same crime as a doctor who mistakenly amputated a patients leg (say due to misdiagnosis of a non-cancerous tumour or something)? The intent of the doctor was totally different than the intent of the assaulter. > [@](#): > > Ultimately I am saying that if we treated a just-born person as a real person with legal and human rights, and someone came along and chopped off some fraction of their penis without consent-or-a-medical rationale (or a religious one), we would rightly regard that as (at least) a case of first degree sexual assault. Circumcision is not typically done without consent. The parents consent to the procedure for their child - parents can consent to many medical procedures for their kids. If you want to complain about circumcisions that are truly done without any kind of consent, I can get behind that. > [@](#): > > There are other differences between the cases I’m sure, you are welcome to point them out and argue that circumcision should not share the same first degree sexual assault status as the Kim Tran case. That’d be refreshing, as I’m seeing a lot of denial-driven strawman bullshit being bandied about in this thread. I think you’d lose that argument, but I bet it won’t happen to begin with. I’m not sure why you think I’d be unable to respond to your point. Anyways, I don’t see any strawmen in this thread - and just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/162 "2012-07-21T09:07:36Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But what if the Tran case had amounted to a circumcision? What if she had the guy tied up, took a kitchen knife and only cut off his foreskin? Clearly she violates rules against trained medical staff performing circumcisions in this case, but still, do you think the police would have ignored it? Do you think the _victim_ would have ignored it? I think if we adjust the Tran case to more closely resemble circumcision, it still winds up 1st degree sexual assault. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The victim in the Tran case is an adult. Yup. I’m concerned about infant circumcision. But in general, aren’t crimes committed against helpless children considered more severe than those committed against adults? The flaw in your analogy is that newborns are not legally allowed to make decisions on surgery. If a 2 year old has operable cancer that will, if left untreated, kill her within 5 years, she is not the one who gets to say no to the surgery, because the law does not believe she understands the stakes involved. She does not meet the legal requirements to give informed consent. Her parents are allowed to overrule the child and order the surgery against the child’s wishes, because they are believed to be more aware of the long-term effects of the decision, and deemed to be able to give informed consent on the child’s behalf. Likewise, ignoring the issue of the newborn actually being able to communicate whether or not he wants a circumcision, his parents have the final decision, because newborns are legally incompetent, and cannot offer informed consent. That’s the law. His parents are authorized by the state to make legal and medical decisions on his behalf, because he is unable to understand and appreciate them. It’s been the law since the beginnings of civilization. The exact opposite of illegal, which is what the term sex offender means. In other words: You have absolutely no legal grounds to refuse a circumcision as a newborn. You can argue that that’s wrong, which is a stupid thing to argue given the limited mental abilities and cognitive functioning of newborn children, but you cannot argue that it is illegal, because the law is what it is. There quite literally is no crime here, because it is specifically written into the law to prevent children from making stupid decisions about things they literally cannot understand. Show me a newborn that meets the legal definition of informed consent, and I’ll give you your argument. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If sincere religious people submit their kids to circumcision for reasons deriving from religious law, I am not going to stop them. I am not the guy that replaces their rabbi or imam or what-have-you. And compared with these systems, modernity hasn’t been around very long. They have a lot of inertia, and not for no reason. And this, is the ultimate irony in your argument. You decry circumcision as barbaric and cruel, and a sexual crime. But you have an asterisk for those who do it for cultural reasons. What if every single circumcision in this country happens for cultural reasons? What if your mother had you circumcised because she believes in the Talmudic traditions? Is she still a sex offender? You create a loophole in your argument that a 747 could fly through. You decry it in one sentence, and support it in another. Pick a side, and stick with it, don’t try and backtrack to avoid offending people. It shows a lack of integrity. And if you’re not doing it to avoid offending people, then your argument is simply not thought through well enough to cover all cases. It is an incomplete thesis. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/163 "2012-07-21T17:36:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But of course giving birth is about as sexual as it gets. _ **lN WHAT SENSE?!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/164 "2012-07-21T23:21:34Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Circ isn’t rape. It may be _worse_ if it isn’t justified. Oh no he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/165 "2012-07-22T03:52:56Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > _ **lN WHAT SENSE?!** _ Maybe he’s saying that’s the only time he’s been in contact with a vagina. ---
**Author:** ![SticksAndString](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@SticksAndString](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SticksAndString)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/166 "2012-07-22T04:21:43Z")
Well there are proponents of something called “orgasmic birth” where you actively try to give yourself the greatest orgasm you’ve ever had in the process of delivering. Personally, I’m not buying it but hey…whatever floats yer boat. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/167 "2012-07-22T04:28:33Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Maybe he’s saying that’s the only time he’s been in contact with a vagina. Thanks for throwing the commoners some low-brow humor, Vinyl. I laughed out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/168 "2012-07-22T08:09:34Z")
> [@SticksAndString](#): > > Well there are proponents of something called “orgasmic birth” where you actively try to give yourself the greatest orgasm you’ve ever had in the process of delivering. Personally, I’m not buying it but hey..whatever floats yer boat. That’s some pretty masochistic shit right there, man. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/169 "2012-07-22T09:01:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Maybe he’s saying that’s the only time he’s been in contact with a vagina. _loud applause_ ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/170 "2012-07-22T09:40:24Z")
> [@SticksAndString](#): > > Well there are proponents of something called “orgasmic birth” where you actively try to give yourself the greatest orgasm you’ve ever had in the process of delivering. Personally, I’m not buying it but hey..whatever floats yer boat. My wife tried that but the doctors asked us to stop as we were making the operating table shake too much. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/171 "2012-07-24T05:35:25Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > _ **lN WHAT SENSE?!** _ erm, it is sexual reproduction. In the sense of, “what sex is for (mostly)”. Being born is uniquely sexual- how can it not be? It certainly isn’t asexual reproduction. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/172 "2012-07-24T05:59:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > erm, it is sexual reproduction. In the sense of, “what sex is for (mostly)”. Being born is uniquely sexual- how can it not be? It certainly isn’t asexual reproduction. :rolleyes: No, birth isn’t “sexual reproduction”. _Conception_ is, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/173 "2012-07-24T06:00:36Z")
> [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](#): > > What if every single circumcision in this country happens for cultural reasons? What if your mother had you circumcised because she believes in the Talmudic traditions? Is she still a sex offender? You create a loophole in your argument that a 747 could fly through. You decry it in one sentence, and support it in another. Pick a side, and stick with it, don’t try and backtrack to avoid offending people. It shows a lack of integrity. And if you’re not doing it to avoid offending people, then your argument is simply not thought through well enough to cover all cases. It is an incomplete thesis. I wasn’t circumcised for Talmudic reasons, which amounts to most I know about the motives. For people to assert categorically that it was not done for punitive reasons or with punitive intent (especially if the true motivator of the intent is some 3rd party actor with some sick reason for wanting to multiply circumcisions in the population) amounts to an appeal to woo via [clairvoyance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyance). I can’t believe you don’t understand why I would not take this up with Judaism or Islam. Let me put it back to you in legal terms: that is not my jurisdiction. You can argue that my jurisdiction is so small as to not exist, but insofar as those traditions go, I really am not going to stand up on a soapbox and tell the Ayatollah how to run his busines and expect his followers to be cool with that. In this culture, however, mothers and fathers are allowing amputations on their otherwise healthy newborns for practically _no reason whatsoever!_ Point this out and everyone freaks out and starts hurling accusations and getting snippy. At least you don’t get this problem with Muslims or Jews- they can at least tell you why it was done. I have some harsh words for people who would allow something so severe without any thought, but that probably just traces back to my personal feelings about bullshit. Not legally a sex offender? Not under our code, but I don’t think anybody is really thinking about the policy. It isn’t worth doing, it amounts to an assault- I don’t see why people are surprised to frame it as a sexual assault, aside from denial of what it is we’re fucking talking about- so that some douchebag can get a check from Medicaid. Why keep doing it? But you are correct, it is an incomplete thesis. The thread got dropped into the pit, so some of the points I am not bringing up here. This thread mostly addresses the unabashedly punitive response to circumcisers, probably the only response capable of achieving real results in the actual world absent something like, oh I don’t know, withdrawing Medicare/Medicaid subsidization for the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/174 "2012-07-24T06:01:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > birth isn’t “sexual reproduction”. I am going to have to become a member of this board now so I can make this my tag. Mods, will you still have me? ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/175 "2012-07-24T07:00:09Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I wasn’t circumcised for Talmudic reasons, which amounts to most I know about the motives. For people to assert categorically that it was not done for punitive reasons or with punitive intent (especially if the true motivator of the intent is some 3rd party actor with some sick reason for wanting to multiply circumcisions in the population) amounts to an appeal to woo via [clairvoyance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyance). Oh man, it’s good you put that link in, cuz NO ONE on this board knows what clairvoyance means. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I can’t believe you don’t understand why I would not take this up with Judaism or Islam. Let me put it back to you in legal terms: that is not my jurisdiction. You can argue that my jurisdiction is so small as to not exist, but insofar as those traditions go, I really am not going to stand up on a soapbox and tell the Ayatollah how to run his busines and expect his followers to be cool with that. So you don’t think it’s your business what the Jews or Muslims do, but god dammit those Christians and Atheists are all _sexual predators_. Is that right? Cuz that’s what it sure sounds like in this paragraph. You think that your jurisdiction (which you’re right, does not exist) is too small to pass judgement on Judaism and Islam, but is big enough to pass judgement on Christianity and Atheism? You won’t tell the Ayatollah he’s a sexual predator, but you’ll scream it in the Doctor’s face, and the face of every parent who has their child circumcised, because they’re not doing it for “acceptable” reasons in your baseless assumption? Again, lack of integrity. Either a rule holds true for everyone, or it’s a worthless affectation. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > In this culture, however, mothers and fathers are allowing amputations on their otherwise healthy newborns for practically _no reason whatsoever!_ Cite that they do it for _no reason whatsoever_. You don’t get to just decide why people are doing it without evidence, based entirely on your own assumptions. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Point this out and everyone freaks out and starts hurling accusations and getting snippy. At least you don’t get this problem with Muslims or Jews- they can at least tell you why it was done. I have some harsh words for people who would allow something so severe without any thought, but that probably just traces back to my personal feelings about bullshit. If you had any aversion to bullshit, you would have avoided posting such an obviously confrontational thread with such an attention-whoring title. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Not legally a sex offender? Not under our code, but I don’t think anybody is really thinking about the policy. It isn’t worth doing, it amounts to an assault- I don’t see why people are surprised to frame it as a sexual assault, aside from denial of what it is we’re fucking talking about- so that some douchebag can get a check from Medicaid. Why keep doing it? People are surprised you label it sexual assault because other people know that not everything penis related is sexual. We’ve advanced beyond Freud, and realize that holding in urine doesn’t mean we want to jerk off. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But you are correct, it is an incomplete thesis. The thread got dropped into the pit, so some of the points I am not bringing up here. This thread mostly addresses the unabashedly punitive response to circumcisers, probably the only response capable of achieving real results in the actual world absent something like, oh I don’t know, withdrawing Medicare/Medicaid subsidization for the procedure. This completely ignores all the medical evidence in favor of circumcision, like the 30-60% reduction in HIV infection for heterosexual men, prevention of phimosis, balanoposthitis, protection against urinary tract infections, and various cancers. But that doesn’t matter, cuz _circumcision is wrong._ And surely you’ve realized by now that the tone of the argument has less to do with your argument itself (which is still simplistic and too general to be useful) than it does about how you present yourself. Act like a pompous know-it-all, and people treat you like one. If you were to ever restart this thread with a less combative, defiant tone, you’d actually get some pretty constructive dialog. And I’d even be willing to contribute without mockery, too. But starting a thread with a title like this is just stupid if you want constructive dialog. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/176 "2012-07-24T14:22:21Z")
My parents are the sickest of them all, then…they not only circumsized my little brother, they had special cards made and sent them to all their friends. Seriously. My father was a graphic artist and he designed birth announcements for all of us. My brother was the first boy after several girls. His card showed a picture of my father’s face, close-up with an expression of shock…and the caption was **$25 bucks for a circumcision???** As you might imagine, this was a long time ago ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/177 "2012-07-24T17:21:00Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I am going to have to become a member of this board now so I can make this my tag. > > Mods, will you still have me? You don’t have to be a member to have a sig. Otherwise, be my guest. It’ll make you look like a dumbass, but go ahead. (Did you note where I said “conception”? You’re already “produced”, you just have to be taken out) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/178 "2012-07-24T18:57:50Z")
> [@Ele the Stoic](#): > > like the 30-60% reduction in HIV infection for heterosexual men Which is hardly relevant in developed countries with high rates of prophylaxis use. ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/179 "2012-07-25T07:25:04Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Which is hardly relevant in developed countries with high rates of prophylaxis use. But is highly relevant in developing countries with low rates of prophylactic use. And last I checked, developed countries still get penile and prostate cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-circumcised-your-mother-is-likely-a-sex-offender/628278/180 "2012-07-26T05:34:23Z")
> [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](#): > > So you don’t think it’s your business what the Jews or Muslims do, but god dammit those Christians and Atheists are all _sexual predators_. > > Is that right? Cuz that’s what it sure sounds like in this paragraph. You think that your jurisdiction (which you’re right, does not exist) is too small to pass judgement on Judaism and Islam, but is big enough to pass judgement on Christianity and Atheism? You won’t tell the Ayatollah he’s a sexual predator, but you’ll scream it in the Doctor’s face, and the face of every parent who has their child circumcised, because they’re not doing it for “acceptable” reasons in your baseless assumption? It is a different thing when Jews do it. I am pretty sure the same holds for when Muslims do it, I am not completely sure, but I am not addressing Muslims with this thread as I do think Islam is a valid reason to circumcise one’s child if one sincerely intends to raise them in that fashion. Christians don’t have their own religious law- Corinthians (1? 7?) prohibits it. And besides, one of the themes of Christianity is that one need not do every damn fool thing in the OT. So I feel entitled to call them out, but especially Americans who circumcise their children for foggy reasons. I don’t think the medical reasons amount to a justification. At. All. :mad: I apologize but there is a limit to how much I will say about it in this thread. The final thread on the topic ought to answer the question to your satisfaction. > [@](#): > > Again, lack of integrity. Either a rule holds true for everyone, or it’s a worthless affectation. Depends on whether or not everyone is doing the same thing. > [@](#): > > Cite that they do it for _no reason whatsoever_. You don’t get to just decide why people are doing it without evidence, based entirely on your own assumptions. Cite common sense for yourself! The medical reasons amount to a judgement against the child. The authorities claim the foreskin is dirty; it MUST be removed. No way this child can care for it- apparently the child is stupid or something. The foreskin will attract STDs; it MUST be removed. No way this child can wear a condom- apparently the child is stupid or something. And apparently also some kind of slut or whore. So. The (one week old!) child is a dirty, stupid whore, and therefore its foreskin MUST be removed. Yes, I call that, “no reason whatsoever”. Also punitive if not tortuous. If you don’t like it, I guess you can fuck off. > [@](#): > > If you had any aversion to bullshit, you would have avoided posting such an obviously confrontational thread with such an attention-whoring title. The bullshit is the continuing acceptance of circumcision. The law is a 3rd party. Part of my (and many of yours) penis is missing. My parents take part in the blame. There’s your stop. The law comes after and tries to separate the two, a repeated avenue of denial in this issue. > [@](#): > > People are surprised you label it sexual assault because other people know that not everything penis related is sexual. We’ve advanced beyond Freud, and realize that holding in urine doesn’t mean we want to jerk off. The foreskin has an especially sexual function, though all its functions are not sexual. To target it, and it alone, for amputation amounts to a sexual assault. I am sorry you don’t like that. Who are you trying to protect? > [@](#): > > This completely ignores all the medical evidence in favor of circumcision, like the 30-60% reduction in HIV infection for heterosexual men, prevention of phimosis, balanoposthitis, protection against urinary tract infections, and various cancers. If there is a medical necessity, I am sure you can demonstrate it for every individual case. If you are talking about statistics it starts to sound like you are accusing me of being a whore. In which case you can fuck off. Look at some wiki quotes: > [@](#): > > The American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated: "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision > [@](#): > > The American Medical Association supports the AAP’s 1999 circumcision policy statement with regard to non-therapeutic circumcision, which they define as the non-religious, non-ritualistic, not medically necessary, elective circumcision of male newborns. They state that “policy statements issued by professional societies representing Australian, Canadian, and American pediatricians do not recommend routine circumcision of male newborns.”[60] > [@](#): > > In the Netherlands, the Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) stated in 2010 that non-therapeutic male circumcision “conflicts with the child’s right to autonomy and physical integrity.” They called on doctors to inform caregivers seeking the intervention of the (in their assessment) medical and psychological risks and lack of convincing medical benefits. They stated that there are as good reasons for legal prohibition of male circumcision as exist for female genital mutilation (FGM).[12] > [@](#): > > But that doesn’t matter, cuz _circumcision is wrong._ You’re arguing with a lot more people than just me. You need to re-examine your faulty position if you can’t mount a better argument than this fucking bullshit. > [@](#): > > And surely you’ve realized by now that the tone of the argument has less to do with your argument itself (which is still simplistic and too general to be useful) than it does about how you present yourself. Act like a pompous know-it-all, and people treat you like one. If you were to ever restart this thread with a less combative, defiant tone, you’d actually get some pretty constructive dialog. And I’d even be willing to contribute without mockery, too. But starting a thread with a title like this is just stupid if you want constructive dialog. I don’t have a choice about how I present myself; they chopped half my dick off. So I guess you ought fuck off until you come around. 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