# Attn: Greek scholars (obscure architecture/religion question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504 "2009-11-06T00:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/1 "2009-11-06T00:59:15Z")
NEED ANSWER FAST! (Har) Helen’s Eidolon? I recall that at some point I heard that while most of the temples are oriented so the entrance is eastward, EXCEPTION is in the case of chthonic gods and Hades and such which are oriented westward (disoriented? 🙂 ). I can only find one reference to a temple to Hades (Elis) but can’t find a lick of info about its architecture on the web. Anyone know of examples? That mystery cult mess at Samothrace maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/2 "2009-11-06T04:51:49Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > … while most of the temples are oriented so the entrance is eastward, EXCEPTION is in the case of chthonic gods and Hades and such which are oriented westward (disoriented? 🙂 … Looking forward to seeing a serious answer to this. That westward orientation cannot be purely occidental. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/3 "2009-11-06T05:49:05Z")
Not sure, but isn’t that the direction that the underworld was located? In the west? So wouldn’t it make sense to orient your temples that way? But it’s been a LOONG long time since i had any latin classic classes. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/4 "2009-11-06T08:11:21Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > Not sure, but isn’t that the direction that the underworld was located? In the west? So wouldn’t it make sense to orient your temples that way? > > But it’s been a LOONG long time since i had any latin classic classes. No, not for the Romans at least. In the Aeneid, there is an entrance to Hades in Italy. Of course, that would be west to the Greeks, and the op is about the Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/5 "2009-11-06T12:44:30Z")
The guy who obsessed over this is Joseph Norman Lockyer, who wrote a book about ancient astronomical orientations. It went out of print, but Jerome Lettvin of MIT brought it to the attention of the MIT press, and they put out a paperback edition several years back. Fascinating stuff I don’t know how Lockyer’s received by the archaeological community, but at least he’s no van Daniken: [quote] Some Greek temples were oriented astronomically.[1] … ^ Penrose, F.C., (communicated by Joseph Norman Lockyer), The Orientation of Greek Temples, Nature, v.48, n.1228, May 11, 1893, pp.42-43 [\quote] > **[Ancient Greek temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_(Greek))** > > Greek temples (Ancient Greek: ναός, romanized: nāós, lit. 'dwelling', semantically distinct from Latin templum, "temple") were structures built to house deity statues within Greek sanctuaries in ancient Greek religion. The temple interiors did not serve as meeting places, since the sacrifices and rituals dedicated to the deity took place outside them, within the wider precinct of the sanctuary, which might be large. Temples were frequently used to store votive offerings. They are the most importa... > [@](#): > > In the early 1890 Lockyer became interested in possible astronomical alignments of ancient Greek and Egyptian monuments and temples, and in 1901 he extended his studies to Stonehenge. Once approximate alignment of a given monument had been identified, he had the interesting idea to date the monument by assuming exact alignment at time of construction and interpreting the difference in terms of the precession of the Earth’s orbital axis. His derived age of 1848 BC for the construction of Stonehenge was spectacularly confirmed much later, in 1952, by radiocarbon dating. Although many of Lockyer’s hypotheses and conclusions were not universally well received and often did not survive the test of time, he is to be credited with founding the field of archeoastronomy. > **[Lockyer, (Joseph) Norman (1836-1920)](https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/Lockyer.html)** > > Norman Lockyer was an English solar astronomer who carried out pioneering studies of the Sun's spectrum, independently of William Huggins and Thomas Young. There’s quite a bit here: > **[When Time Began - 3](https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/whentimebegan/whentimebegan03.htm)** Here’s his book, **The Dawn of Astronomy** , although I see he has a great many others out. The guy edited _Nature_ for years: > **[The Dawn of Astronomy: A study of the temple worship and mythology of the...](https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Astronomy-mythology-Egyptians-paperback/dp/B0007DSCB4)** > > Buy The Dawn of Astronomy: A study of the temple worship and mythology of the ancient Egyptians (The MIT paperback series) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders IIRC, he associated several temples with the heliacal rising of significant stars, not the sun. I don’t recal him saying anything about chthonic gods. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/6 "2009-11-06T13:01:15Z")
Better page on Dawn of Astronomy: > **[The Dawn of Astronomy: A Study of the Temple-Worship and Mythology of the...](https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Astronomy-Temple-Worship-Mythology-Egyptians/dp/1417984104)** > > Buy The Dawn of Astronomy: A Study of the Temple-Worship and Mythology of the Ancient Egyptians on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders > **[Dawn of Astronomy: Lockyer, J. Norman: 9781564591128: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Astronomy-J-Norman-Lockyer/dp/1564591123)** > > Buy Dawn of Astronomy on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/7 "2009-11-06T13:51:02Z")
The Temple of Apollo at Vassae is orientated not far off North-South, just to add another dimension to the mix. It’s speculated that this might just be to do with the topography, so maybe the Greeks weren’t that bothered by the orientation, but I think this is a subject we don’t know enough facts about. I suspect a trawl through Pausanias is the best bet, but I don’t have the time. Hades had several entrances so you wouldn’t really be pointing towards it with any orientation (apart from up-down, maybe). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/8 "2009-11-06T14:45:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I suspect a trawl through Pausanias is the best bet, but I don’t have the time. I don’t recall Pausanias saying much, if anything, about orientations. You’d want to look through your Pausanias to identify the temple, and use modern maps or archaeological plans for the orientation, I’d think. Not a quick study over a weekend, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/9 "2009-11-06T15:43:20Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I don’t recall Pausanias saying much, if anything, about orientations. You’d want to look through your Pausanias to identify the temple, and use modern maps or archaeological plans for the orientation, I’d think. Not a quick study over a weekend, I’m afraid. No he doesn’t, at least not directly. Colonel Leake is your man for that! What I meant is that he might be of help in talking about temples to Hades, and whether they differed in any way to ‘normal’ temples. I can’t think of any extant ones and the only thing that comes to my head is the sanctuary to Hades at Tenaron, but there are no temple remains there. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/10 "2009-11-08T00:55:44Z")
Ah, interesting replies. I was sort of hunting for something in the “commonplace knowledge” realm and apparently this is not in that realm. (I think the closest clear examples I’ve come by are temples to Kali! A bit irrelevant here) Was something interesting I was going to add as an aside in lectures but the issue sounds pretty iffy. Good to know! Thanks, all. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/11 "2009-11-08T01:40:11Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Looking forward to seeing a serious answer to this. That westward orientation cannot be purely occidental. 🙂 **smacks Polycarp** ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attn-greek-scholars-obscure-architecture-religion-question/516504/12 "2009-11-09T02:36:32Z")
I’ve never heard of anything about it - Cal clearly has a handle on the historiography of the issue. I’ll say that, in general, the idea of a divide between Olympian and chthonic (my favourite word ever, by the way) deities is very controversial - there are good arguments on both sides. My roommate, doing her PhD in Greek archaeology, also reports no knowledge of any general rules of temple orientation.