# Attorneys general or attorney generals **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558 "2008-01-15T02:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/21 "2008-01-15T15:48:13Z")
[QUOTE=papaw] But should it be Attorn **ies** General? [/QUOTE] That would be a negatory. The silly but accurate Y rule from second grade or so still applies: When a word ends in **a consonant** and -Y, drop the -Y and add -IES. When it ends in a **vowel** and -Y, just add -S. Using the British form for half the set of homonyms that most beautifully illustrate this: “Detective _stories_ often have criminal types skulking around upper _storeys_.” ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/22 "2008-01-15T16:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=mangeorge] Which is “most” correct? I heard a newscaster tonight say the former, and it kinda jangled in my ears. [/QUOTE] Kind of like “kinda” does. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/23 "2008-01-15T16:26:19Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] The standard usage in all published writing I’ve seen has been to pluralize by adding the “-s” to “attorney,” [/QUOTE] Then you just haven’t looked. Try plugging “attorney generals” into Google News. Here are the first few hits. [http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=7620629&nav=MXEFM7m7](http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=7620629&nav=MXEFM7m7) > [@](#): > > Attorney generals from several states have been pushing for greater controls on the popular online networking sites, to prevent sexual predators from being able to contact children. [http://www.bdtonline.com/editorials/local\_story\_014171213.html](http://www.bdtonline.com/editorials/local_story_014171213.html) > [@](#): > > Several attorney generals have been looking at the safety issues involving MySpace for some time, Fulton said. [http://www.voanews.com/english/Africa/2008-01-14-voa3.cfm](http://www.voanews.com/english/Africa/2008-01-14-voa3.cfm) > [@](#): > > I want to believe that Nana playing a very key role in President John Kufuor’s government and also being the attorney general, one of the first attorney generals of President Kufuor’ regime, if he had interest in calling or making an amendment towards this transitional provision in order to prosecute Ex-President Rawlings and his cohorts, he could have done that. I think that Ghana has come a long way. Here’s one from Canada. [http://web.bcnewsgroup.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=117&cat=23&id=1136911&more=0](http://web.bcnewsgroup.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=117&cat=23&id=1136911&more=0) > [@](#): > > When the constitutionality of a Canadian law is challenged, lawyers must submit notice to the provincial and federal attorney generals. The government can then choose whether or not to defend the law. Attorney generals is not the default, but it is increasingly common in journalism and in all other non-academic or formal writing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/24 "2008-01-15T16:36:27Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Attorney generals is not the default, but it is increasingly common in journalism and in all other non-academic or formal writing. [/QUOTE] “Increasingly common” is somewhat different from “the modern standard.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/25 "2008-01-15T16:51:38Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] “Increasingly common” is somewhat different from “the modern standard.” [/QUOTE] That’s true. However, nobody in this thread, certainly not me, ever said that it was “the modern standard.” I said it was correct in modern writing, which is not at all the same thing. Find a new strawman. Better yet, don’t put words into my mouth and then berate me for them. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/26 "2008-01-15T16:55:21Z")
You wrote above, “Attorneys general is the old standard.” A logical inference is that you are saying “attorney generals” is the new standard. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/27 "2008-01-15T17:20:18Z")
I’m a bit puzzled as how anyone can authoritatively say that one is more formal, or by inference, more proper, than the other when all the dictionaries I’ve looked at list “attorney generals” and “attorneys general” as equally proper plurals. In fact, I haven’t even found a usage note illuminating any difference between the two. I think any opinions about which is modern and which is old or which is right for publishing or whatever are simple reflections of an individual’s preference, and nothing to do with correctness. Use either one you please, but there’s nothing wrong with using the other. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/28 "2008-01-15T17:52:12Z")
“Attorney General” is an example of a postpositive adjective. Postpositive adjectives follow the nouns they modify in accordance with Romance syntax rather than Germanic syntax that English normally follows. They’re usually found in English as a remnant of Norman French influence during the Middle Ages, especially right after the Norman Conquest. French legal phrases, syntax and all, were adopted into English unchanged, even though in English adjectives almost always precede the nouns they modify. A few examples of legal phrases with postpositive adjectives: accounts payable, accounts receiveable, attorney general, condition precedent, condition subsequent, easement appurtenant, fee simple, president-elect, court martial, queen regnant, heir apparent, body politic, sum total, notary public. Source: Bryan E. Garner, A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage 424-425 (1987). Since the noun precedes the adjective describing it, the prescriptivist answer is that it’s the thing being pluralized, e.g. notaries public, courts martial, attorneys general. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/29 "2008-01-15T18:13:44Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Then you just haven’t looked. Try plugging “attorney generals” into Google News. [/QUOTE] FWIW, the Associate Press Stylebook (the bible of newspaper style guides) only allows for “attorneys general.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/30 "2008-01-15T18:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Find a new strawman. Better yet, don’t put words into my mouth and then berate me for them. [/QUOTE] As Walloon said, it was a logical conclusion based on what you had said. I’m not sure where this “berating” comes in, but accusations of strawmanism and putting words in mouths seem to be closer to berating than anything I said. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/31 "2008-01-15T18:28:06Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] FWIW, the Associate Press Stylebook (the bible of newspaper style guides) only allows for “attorneys general.” [/QUOTE] The first cite I quoted was from the Associated Press. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/32 "2008-01-15T18:40:23Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] As Walloon said, it was a logical conclusion based on what you had said. [/QUOTE] Are either of you really trying to argue that there is one standard and that no other usage therefore can be correct? If so, thank you for the gift. I love it when people try to proffer arguments that have no basis in reality. If not, and it seems impossible that anyone could argue such nonsense, don’t try to pretend that I ever said there was an equivalency between a new correct usage and a new modern standard. I never said it, no matter what words you try to put into my mouth. Keep your absurd arguments to yourselves. Just to remind you of the difference between what I said and your fanciful interpretations of it, here it is one more time. It is correct to use attorney generals in everyday writing. It is done by good writers and journalists. For formal writing, the standard is attorneys general, as preserved in The National Association of Attorneys General. Any inference from those statements that a new standard has yet been accepted is illogical in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/33 "2008-01-15T18:44:30Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Are either of you really trying to argue that there is one standard and that no other usage therefore can be correct? [/quote] No. I think you’re getting unnecessarily exercised. This is a discussion, after all. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/34 "2008-01-15T18:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=Hypnagogic Jerk] I believe forms such as “attorney general” or “governor general” are borrowed from French, where the adjective usually follows the noun. [/QUOTE] True, and they also agree in number–so why isn’t it “attorneys generals?” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/35 "2008-01-15T19:03:23Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] True, and they also agree in number–so why isn’t it “attorneys generals?” [/QUOTE] Good question, I guess this phrase and the other ones described by **pravnik** were adapted to English even though they were borrowed almost unchanged from French. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/36 "2008-01-15T19:12:55Z")
Because the English borrowed the words, but not the rest of the rules of French grammar. That’s not unusual in such a jackdaw language as English - “oooh - shiny”. Vocabulary is relatively easy to borrow, but rules of grammar aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/37 "2008-01-15T19:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] The first cite I quoted was from the Associated Press. [/QUOTE] Which proves exactly nothing other than a mistake got by an editor or WBOC editors changed the story to fit their style. Associated Press Style is unambiguously “attorneys general”. I have the stylebook in front of me. If that’s not enough, go to the AP website itself, search for “attorneys general” and “attorney generals” and see how many hits you get. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/38 "2008-01-15T19:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Are either of you really trying to argue that there is one standard and that no other usage therefore can be correct? [/QUOTE] Just to be clear, I am not arguing this. What I am saying is that in formal usage that is guided by a clear stylebook for purposes of consistency, there may be stylistically correct and incorrect usages. For newspapers that follow Associated Press style, an editor should change “attorney generals” to “attorneys general,” as that is the style of that medium. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/39 "2008-01-15T19:36:54Z")
[QUOTE=dtilque] I once made up a list of such “generals” but I think it’s on a computer I can’t access right now. Let me try to reconstruct it by memory. Adjutant general Attorney general Governor general Inspector general Judge advocate general Paymaster general Postmaster general Quartermaster general Secretary general Solicitor general I think there may be a few more. [/QUOTE] Yup: **Surgeon General**. There’s only one at a time but, when discussing the history of the office, one refers to Surgeons General. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558/40 "2008-01-15T19:45:50Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] True, and they also agree in number–so why isn’t it “attorneys generals?” [/QUOTE] Because even though the word order retains the French form, they’re still English words, and English adjectives don’t reflect number. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attorneys-general-or-attorney-generals/433558.md?page=3)