# "Au Jus" as a noun **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945 "2006-02-17T14:47:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/81 "2006-02-18T17:56:55Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I just don’t see how this is correct. I asked my wife to use “au jus” in a sentence, and she used it as a noun. She knows what it means in French, but she doesn’t see why that should matter to her when she uses it in English. I suspect that the judgment she makes on this matter will be at least as common as the judgment you’re making; your jugment seems to me to be based on faulty logic, the same faulty logic that leads to people thinking split infinitives are unacceptable in English. > > The ability folks have to use language in the most useful manner is very cool, is a feature of language in general but especially of English, which borrows so heavily from other languages. > > Daniel One further note: You seem to be classing me with the kind of thinker we learn about in Linguistics 101, the kind I’ll call the “naive prescriptivist.” The kind that thinks like one of Pinker’s “Language Mavens.” If you care to go back and read the arguments I’ve given, you’ll see that I’m not oen of of these, and I’m not talking, arguing, or thinking like one. I don’t mean to say you are obligated to actually go back and reread everything… you’ve got a life, I’m sure :). You can just take my word for it, or withhold judgment, or whatever you prefer. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/82 "2006-02-18T20:51:07Z")
> [@Ignatz](#): > > These ads also bothered my sense of “prescriptiveness” from the git-go You mean get-go. The prescriptiveness is weak with this one! 😉 > [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t think there was ever a time when it was appropriate to call split infinitives “incorrect.” That notion was just basically made up. How is this different? It was never incorrect to use “au jus” as a noun in English, either. It’s far enough along that I’m sure anyone I ask would use it that way. Like I said before, the sandwich-shop guy used it that way when I hadn’t even used the words “au jus” in my question. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/83 "2006-02-18T22:10:29Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > You mean get-go. The prescriptiveness is weak with this one! 😉 > > How is this different? It was never incorrect to use “au jus” as a noun in English, either. It’s far enough along that I’m sure anyone I ask would use it that way. Like I said before, the sandwich-shop guy used it that way when I hadn’t even used the words “au jus” in my question. As I said in my previous post, you may be right–the usage may be further along than I thought. This would suprise me, since I first heard it only last year and no one I’ve asked has been untroubled by the usage when I asked them about it. Still, its entirely possible. I don’t know what to say to your remark that “it was never incorrect to use ‘au jus’ as a noun in English.” If the original uses of “au jus” as a noun were constituted by people who believed they were taking the word out of uses like “roast beef au jus” and using it in a way that was based on the same model, then those original usages were incorrect. I presume this is exactly how the noun usage came into being. (Does anyone seriously doubt this?) And so I conclude that for a time, at least, the usage was incorrect. I think that time has not passed. I think people in general are still either: A. Thinking “with au jus” is a usage based on the same model from which “roast beef au jus” is derived B. Not thinking about it at all, but are such that if you stopped them and jogged their brain a bit, they _would_ think about it and say “say, you’re right!” If I thought neither of these were the case, I would say the usage is fine. In fact, it looks like you and LHoD and other “anti-prescriptivists” on this thread do in fact believe that neither A nor B is the case. I do not disagree with any argument you might make that _since_ these aren’t the case, there’s not a good way to talk in terms of the use being “correct” or “incorrect” except by standards of communicative usefulness. Where we disagree is over the question of whether A or B holds. Unfortunately, this forum is such that only anecdotal evidence can be adduced in favor of or against either point. It is interesting to ask, though, whether you guys agree with me that if either A or B is the cse, then there’s a sensible way to talk about the “correctness” or "incorrectness " of the usage which is not just a way to say the usage is “useful?” -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/84 "2006-02-18T23:08:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It is interesting to ask, though, whether you guys agree with me that if either A or B is the cse, then there’s a sensible way to talk about the “correctness” or "incorrectness " of the usage which is not just a way to say the usage is “useful?” Honestly, I don’t. What someone believes about a word’s origin has nothing to do, I think, with whether they use it competently. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/85 "2006-02-18T23:09:24Z")
> [@Mindfield](#): > > Technically, no. “au” (and the plural “aux”) means “with.” (the synonym would be “avec” though I’m not entirely sure the context in which one or the other would be used) “a le” (and the masculine “a la”) translate as “(it) has.” Thus, _pâté a la mode_ transalates literally as “pie has the fashion.” I’m not sure if “in the fashion” is just a common mistranslation or if there is some commonly understood rule in French that changes the “has” to “in.” My french is _comme-si, comme-ça_. Actually, all respect, but your French is horrible. Almost everything you’ve said here is completely incorrect. This is General Questions; above all the other forums, this is where we’re supposed to fight ignorance, not increase it. I am not a mod, so this is intended to carry only the weight of an individual plea, not an instruction. But please, people, if you’re not sure of your answer, at least include a disclaimer saying so. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/86 "2006-02-18T23:18:27Z")
> [@Mindfield](#): > > _Hors-d’oeuvre_ translates literally as “out of work.” Not that it makes a big difference. 🙂 > > I’d be interested in the etymology of _Hors-d’oeuvre_ as it relates to an appetizer though. Seems a curious phrase to apply to little comestibles. 🙂 “Out of work” is an English idiom. As such, translating it literally, word for word, into French, it will not have the same meaning. In the French phrase _hors d’oeuvre_, the “oeuvre” is not the work of “labor” or “job,” it’s the work of “a work,” as in “a work of art.” In fact, the word \*oeuvre \*is perfectly acceptable as an [English word](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oeuvre) meaning the same thing. Thus \*hors d’oeuvre \*means “outside of the work,” or, a course of a meal that is not a part of the meal “proper.” ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/87 "2006-02-19T00:49:48Z")
Isn’t “French-dip sauce” perfectly cromulent, especially since what you are really getting 90% of the time is not ‘beef drippings’ but “watery brown stuff made from a powdered packet with which I hope to make this mediocre sandwich soggy”? “May I have more hydrated beef boullion cube?” I have a hard time comprehending, but not because of language. I just realized how much I despise that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/88 "2006-02-19T01:01:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Honestly, I don’t. What someone believes about a word’s origin has nothing to do, I think, with whether they use it competently. > > Daniel I guess you forgot that I make a distinction between the measurement of “competence” and the measurement of “correct use.” It is possible to be competent and correct, competent and incorrect, incompetent and correct (very rarely, though), and incompetent and incorrect. It would be foolish of me to claim that knowledge etymology has anything to do with competent use. I’ve made it very clear in this thread that that is not something I would claim. I’ve made it clear that I wholeheartedly agree with you that the claim is an incorrect one. In my last post, and in this entire thread, I wasn’t asking about competence, but rather I was asking about correctness. Not even that–I was asking whether under the circumstances I named you would agree that there is a way to talk about “correctness” that doesn’t just boil down to usefulness-for-communication. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/89 "2006-02-19T16:17:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In my last post, and in this entire thread, I wasn’t asking about competence, but rather I was asking about correctness. Not even that–I was asking whether under the circumstances I named you would agree that there is a way to talk about “correctness” that doesn’t just boil down to usefulness-for-communication. I don’t believe there is; in fact, I think these questions ought to be moved to IMHO, since there’s no factual answer to them. It’s as if you’re asking, “In this jazz song, there’s a chord progression from E Minor to an A Major. Is this correct?” There are ways in which the question is GQ material: -Does this usage appear in any major dictionary? -Does this usage involve a shift in meaning from the original language? -How far back can this usage be traced? -Would this usage be accepted under a specific style guide? All of these have factual answers. The question as asked–“is this correct?”–is meaningless. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/90 "2006-02-19T16:41:14Z")
Since everyone seems to be having so much fun, let’s move this to IMHO. The basics of the original question have long since been answered. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/91 "2006-02-19T16:51:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t believe there is; in fact, I think these questions ought to be moved to IMHO, since there’s no factual answer to them. It’s as if you’re asking, “In this jazz song, there’s a chord progression from E Minor to an A Major. Is this correct?” > > There are ways in which the question is GQ material: > -Does this usage appear in any major dictionary? > -Does this usage involve a shift in meaning from the original language? > -How far back can this usage be traced? > -Would this usage be accepted under a specific style guide? > > All of these have factual answers. The question as asked–“is this correct?”–is meaningless. > > Daniel “Meaningless?” But I’ve explained my meaning… Onless you think just any IMHO question is meaningless by definition for some reason? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/92 "2006-02-19T17:22:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > “Meaningless?” But I’ve explained my meaning… > Onless you think just any IMHO question is meaningless by definition for some reason? > > -FrL- I believe that I have rejected the meaning you’ve suggested as betraying a misunderstanding of how language works. If you feel that I’ve not addressed a particular argument of yours, could you restate it? Thanks! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ayalabmaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@ayalabmaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ayalabmaj)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/93 "2006-02-19T17:22:39Z")
How much au lait goes in a cafe au lait? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/94 "2006-02-20T02:41:57Z")
Since there is no good noun for it, if I ever need to ask for more stuff to dip my sandwich au ju in, I’ll probably ask for some more “au jus sauce”. I can think of “au jus” as an attributive adjective far easier than I can as a noun. If someone asks me if I want something with Au Jus, I’m never just going to say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/95 "2006-02-20T15:59:05Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > Sure, everyone knows to throw the “y” sound in there, but I’d wager that a survey of common American English in areas with low Hispanic populations would turn up a lot of “jalapeno” and “companero” spelled like so. “Incorrect” usage works the other way, too. People are familiar with “jalapeño,” so they’ve improperly modified the name of that small, super-hot orange pepper that’s exploded in popularity in the last few years: _habanero._ Most people, I wager, will pronounce it “hobbin-yero,” while the actual correct pronunciation is more like “ahba-narrow.” For now, anyway, until the new version has swamped the old one. ---
**Author:** ![Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/59ef9b/32.png) [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorkshire_Pudding)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/96 "2017-11-15T23:28:15Z")
I’m a bit puzzled by the “so what should we call it? ‘Juice’ sounds ridiculous!” argument. Why not ‘jus’ (pronounced as per the French: ‘zhoo’)? That’s the way it’s used in BE, and no-one hears it as ‘juice’, looks bewildered and points to the drinks. ‘Jus’ as a loan-word is fine, and could be absorbed like countless others; the problem is entirely with the ‘au’. If somebody French heard an English speaker ordering their hot chocolate “with marshmallows”, then went back to France and started having their chocolat chaud avec ‘with marshmallows’, English speakers would naturally correct them, and it wouldn’t be misplaced pedantry or snobbish prescriptivism. We don’t have our coffee in an ‘in a cup’, we have it in a cup. We don’t have our meat and potatoes with ‘with gravy’, we have them with gravy. Same with ‘au jus’. It’s just ‘jus’. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/97 "2017-11-16T14:32:47Z")
Welcome to the Dope Yorkshire Pudding. You’re replying to a thread that is 11 years old and the previous participants have all been reduced to gibbering idiots from the exposure to language usage and development since then, but maybe you will find some more current conversations to participate in next time. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/98 "2017-11-16T17:33:44Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Welcome to the Dope Yorkshire Pudding. You’re replying to a thread that is 11 years old and the previous participants have all been reduced to gibbering idiots from the exposure to language usage and development since then, but maybe you will find some more current conversations to participate in next time. Replying to a zombie in IMHO is perfectly fine if you have something to add (but it’s frowned on in GQ unless you have new facts). ---
**Author:** ![Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/59ef9b/32.png) [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorkshire_Pudding)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/99 "2017-11-18T01:02:08Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Welcome to the Dope Yorkshire Pudding. You’re replying to a thread that is 11 years old and the previous participants have all been reduced to gibbering idiots from the exposure to language usage and development since then, but maybe you will find some more current conversations to participate in next time. Ha! Hiya. Yes, I know, I’m remarkably late to the party. I only encountered this discussion by Googling the seemingly rather clumsy usage of “au jus”, so thought I’d stick my oar in, see what might happen. It was late, drink had been taken… I shall explore the boards, and try to articulate my opinions in a more timely fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945/100 "2017-11-20T02:23:41Z")
I’m with you, **Yorkshire Pudding** , what is wrong with “jus”? I wanted to ask all through this reading, but wondered who could have woken an eleven year old zombie, and would any of the original posters read it? I think it’s another difference between AmE and Brit or Commonwealth English. Whenever I read au jus, my mind parses it as “with gravy” as that’s how I’ve always considered the resulting dish of food with its little jug of meaty sauce. Basically unthickened gravy. I’d ask for more jus (said zhoo) if I wanted a top up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/au-jus-as-a-noun/344945.md?page=6)