# Audubon society changing name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 1, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926 "2022-08-01T16:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/41 "2022-08-02T01:12:16Z")
They could just change the name to the title of his most famous book; Birds of America. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/42 "2022-08-02T01:18:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, yes, it’s not like doing this impacts our ability to do anything else. It’s more a sign of a cultural change than anything. America’s mythologizing of history is a huge part of our problems right now. I don’t really have a dog in this fight and I don’t care what the Audubon society changes their name to. I would like a more realistic assessment of America’s past, but I think renaming so many things will do the opposite. We’re just burying our hands and ignoring the complex truth that sometimes people who made very good contributions to our culture also made very bad contributions. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/43 "2022-08-02T01:20:53Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > For one thing, it detracts from their mission. Here in America, unless you’ve been living under a rock all your life, you **KNOW** , at least in broad strokes, what the Audubon Society does. But by changing their name, they have to expend time, effort, and money in spreading the word about their new name. There’s supposed to be a benefit to rebranding, but name changes like this carry no benefit whatsoever. I felt the same way when the World Wrestling Federation becamse World Wrestling Entertainment. Twenty years later I still think of it as the WWF. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/44 "2022-08-02T01:50:59Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > For one thing, it detracts from their mission. Here in America, unless you’ve been living under a rock all your life, you **KNOW** , at least in broad strokes, what the Audubon Society does. But by changing their name, they have to expend time, effort, and money in spreading the word about their new name. I suppose they could change it to “The Society Formerly Known As Audubon.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/45 "2022-08-02T04:23:40Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > For one thing, it detracts from their mission. For pity’s sake. No it doesn’t. There are a bajillion things they could change their name to that would be much clearer, e.g., “The Seattle Birders Association.” > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Talking about renaming stuff named after Lincoln, Jefferson, etc really makes Dems/Liberals bad. And I think many liberals agree with me but they don’t speak up for fear they might be branded a Nazi or KKK fan. No. _fussing_ about renaming stuff makes Dems/Liberals look bad. And I think many liberals agree wtih me but they don’t speak up for fear that they might be branded woke or a social justice warrior. The objections to this are so silly. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/46 "2022-08-02T04:26:09Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I would like a more realistic assessment of America’s past, but I think renaming so many things will do the opposite. We’re just burying our hands and ignoring the complex truth that sometimes people who made very good contributions to our culture also made very bad contributions. I feel that not renaming is burying the truth. When we rename, we confront the past and choose who and what we wish to honor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/47 "2022-08-02T04:28:00Z")
This group that would have a hissy fit if the Audubon Society changed its name- Is it the same group that is having a hissy fit because the NAACP isn’t changing _its_ name? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/48 "2022-08-02T04:28:05Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I feel that not renaming is burying the truth. When we rename, we confront the past and choose who and what we wish to honor. Indeed. This simple act of renaming has given more folks an education into Audubon’s enslaving ways than the last century of not renaming has done. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/49 "2022-08-02T05:17:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No it doesn’t. There are a bajillion things they could change their name to that would be much clearer, e.g., “The Seattle Birders Association.” That’s not clearer to anyone to whom the name “Audubon Society” already means something. I don’t know what “The Seattle Birders Association” is, but it sounds like it could be an association of random dithering amateurs who run around outside with binoculars around their necks, though there’s a slight chance it could be a business association for people in the Seattle area who breed and sell canaries and parakeets. I think that @Bootb has a legitimately good argument here. An organization or company with a reasonably well-known name has much of its reputation and credibility tied up with that name. Change the name and you forfeit that reputation, and people no longer know who you are (unless maybe you got lots of publicity _about_ the name change). It’s a legitimately good argument _in general_ against a company or organization changing its name. But it’s not a _conclusive_ argument. There may be arguments _for_ a name change as well, and in some cases (including quite possibly this one) those arguments could outweigh the arguments against. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/50 "2022-08-02T07:08:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This simple act of renaming has given more folks an education into Audubon’s enslaving ways than the last century of not renaming has done. I also think it seems quite timely in light of the raised awareness as of about two years ago concerning [the hazards of “birding while black”.](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/birding-while-black) It’s not that we can’t or shouldn’t still admire Audubon’s work and his accomplishments. I have a secondhand copy of a Birds of America coffee-table volume on my bookshelf and I’m not getting rid of it, for example. But I’m also not going to get upset if the Audubon society or any subset thereof decides it would rather not be identified by the guy’s name any more. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/51 "2022-08-02T11:58:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That’s not clearer to anyone to whom the name “Audubon Society” already means something. I don’t know what “The Seattle Birders Association” is, but it sounds like it could be an association of random dithering amateurs who run around outside with binoculars around their necks, though there’s a slight chance it could be a business association for people in the Seattle area who breed and sell canaries and parakeets. I don’t really agree that many people know what “Audubon” means but don’t know what “birder” means. And I don’t agree that many people know what “Audubon” means any more specifically than “an association of random dithering amateurs who run around outside with binoculars around their necks”. I think you’re vastly exaggerating the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/52 "2022-08-02T12:16:32Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > It expends political and social capital. I think it’s more likely to build social capital. It creates a buzz that makes people think about the issue. > [@Omniscient](#): > > Pretty much every business school and socioeconomic study disagrees here. You do what’s important and urgent first. Everything is zero sum. And what important and urgent problems does the Seattle Audubon Society have that the trustees ought to be addressing first? My guess is none. And almost nothing is zero sum. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/53 "2022-08-02T12:24:21Z")
I may be more invested in the Audubon name than many of you. I spent most of my childhood summers at Audubon camps. And no, they weren’t birding camps, although that was an offered activity. I guess i could call them nature camps. Anyway, i am not an Audubon society trustee. I’m not going to expend my energy changing the name. But I’m curious to see where they go with it. I do believe in updating names. I maintain a file that I’ve renamed to remove the word “master” from it. I think that use of “master” has been deprecated. And as an added bonus, my file name is now shorter and more descriptive of what’s actually in the file, because i spent some shower time thinking about what might be a better name. I did not spend time and energy on it that i should have spent doing something more important. (I do spend time and energy reading the SDMB that i probably ought to spend on more important stuff…i may have a bit of an internet addiction…) So i hope they come up with a really good name. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/54 "2022-08-02T12:32:25Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I may be more invested in the Audubon name than many of you. A friend of ours owns an Audubon Store. High end bird feeders, baths, binoculars, books, etc. I wonder how any rebranding will impact him. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/55 "2022-08-02T12:43:49Z")
I was surprised to read about this a little while ago. I hadn’t realized that Audubon was a racist, but it’s pretty undeniable. On one hand, I’m glad this sort of thing is coming out, and that things are being renamed. Here in Boston Dudley Square (and the subway stop named after it) is now Nubian Square. Thomas Dudley was not only a slave holder, but one of the colony’s leading lights when it sanctioned slaveholding. John Muir, the icon of the Sierra Club, is now seen as a racist (although some are pushing back against it). H.P. Lovecraft, it was clear from his writing, was racist, although I didn’t realize how racist until I came across that poem. The HBO series _Lovecraft Country_ really made that clear. That link near the start of this thread to the Wikipedia page on slaveholders isn’t, to me, the most eye-opening. The White House website has a number of pages on the slaveholding activities of the presidents that’s definitely worth reading. I always thought of the Adamses as the ideals of non-racist presidents in an era where that was practically impossible – they didn’t hold slaves, and Abigail was famous for teaching a black servant to read. But even they had trouble maintaining these standards, especially when living in the new White House in Washington DC, where using black slaves was built into the economy and virtually assumed and expected > [@](#): > > Surviving records do not reveal who the Adamses hired to supplement the domestic staff they brought to Washington, D.C., but this last letter highlights the Adamses’ complicated relationship with race, slavery, and workers in their homes. At times, Abigail was condescending and racist [https://www.whitehousehistory.org/the-households-of-john-adams#:~:text=Adams%20did%20not%20own%20enslaved,that%20they%20avoided%20slavery%20altogether](https://www.whitehousehistory.org/the-households-of-john-adams#:~:text=Adams%20did%20not%20own%20enslaved,that%20they%20avoided%20slavery%20altogether). I recall the line Benjamin Franklin speaks in the musical **1776** about starting the first anti-slavery group in the continent. But the line is anachronistic – he did so much later than 1776. and Franklin had, himself, been a slaveholder. he also ran advertisements for the return of runaway slaves in his newspaper [https://pennandslaveryproject.org/exhibits/show/slaveownership/earlytrustees/benfrank](https://pennandslaveryproject.org/exhibits/show/slaveownership/earlytrustees/benfrank) ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/56 "2022-08-02T13:19:51Z")
Did Jefferson do anything while president to outlaw slavery? I don’t think he did . ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/57 "2022-08-02T13:51:34Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Did Jefferson do anything while president to outlaw slavery? I don’t think he did . Several things > [@](#): > > Early in his public life, Jefferson was one of the first statesmen anywhere to take action to end slavery. > > In 1778 he introduced a Virginia law prohibiting the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784 he proposed a ban on slavery in the Northwest Territory, new lands ceded by the British in 1783. He didn’t do anything about getting rid of slavery or ameliorating the lives of slaves in the existing states, though And he didn’t free most of his slaves when he died – just a few that were probably his own kids or relatives. Jefferson is definitely one of the most complex and frustrating of the Founders. Wrote well, and wrote movingly about the virtues of freedom while continuing to own and exploit slaves his entire life. Inventor and philosopher and scholar who owned and used people. I have read many of his writings and love them, but deplore his lifestyle. The top quote from here [Jefferson's Antislavery Actions | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello](https://www.monticello.org/slavery/paradox-of-liberty/thomas-jefferson-liberty-slavery/jefferson-s-antislavery-actions/#:~:text=Early%20in%20his%20public%20life,by%20the%20British%20in%201783). ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/58 "2022-08-02T15:05:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I recall the line Benjamin Franklin speaks in the musical **1776** about starting the first anti-slavery group in the continent. But the line is anachronistic – he did so much later than 1776. and Franklin had, himself, been a slaveholder. he also ran advertisements for the return of runaway slaves in his newspaper Jefferson, in _1776_, says that he has resolved to free his slaves, though of course he never did. Ironically, John Dickinson, the musical’s “villain” (or as close to a villain as you could have in that story), _did_ free his slaves just a year later. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/59 "2022-08-02T16:04:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think that use of “master” has been deprecated. Really? All uses, in all contexts, because the bosses of slaves used to be called masters? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926/60 "2022-08-02T16:45:44Z")
Did you notice that i used the phrase “that use”? I realize i make a lot of swypos, but my language there was careful and precise. I think the word is sensitive enough that all uses should be considered. Does the word “master” improve the accuracy or clarity of an expression? Is there a better word, or a way to recast the expression that would be as good or better? In this case, my file not only used the word “master”, it also had a long, unwieldy name that was only partially descriptive. And “summary” better captured the purpose of the file than “master”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/audubon-society-changing-name/968926.md?page=4)