# August 2018 White Civil Rights Rally in Washington, DC. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575 "2018-06-22T15:54:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/21 "2018-06-23T22:07:41Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > White people whining about Civil Rights is like Super Models whining about being body shamed, isn’t it? To be fair to us, we white (men) used to control 100% of all the positions of power, influence and importance. All the important positions in business, law, military, politics, culture, etc. were held by christian white men. Now we are down to them only holding maybe 70%. Time to make Ameruca great again and get that number back up to 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/22 "2018-06-24T00:37:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Some facts you should consider. > > Canada has hate speech laws. They are carefully crafted as a balance between the best interests of a peaceful society and the constitutionally enshrined right of free speech. Martin Luther King wasn’t banned in Canada. He was in Toronto in 1967 without a problem, giving one of the famous Massey Lectures to great acclaim. Dangerous neo-Nazis have, however, been banned from Canada, or subsequently deported. I’ll ignore your _tu quoque_. It’s irrelevant, and only meant to incite an angry response I’d regret. I will say that, even limiting our consideration to modern events, [Canada has a long way to go in terms of freedom of expression](https://www.popehat.com/2010/11/22/new-york-times-co-v-sullivan-my-love-letter-to-the-united-states-supreme-court-and-the-first-amendment/): > [@](#): > > In Canada, you’d better watch what you say if you want to criticize The Man. You’d better make sure every word is the literal truth, and that you can back it up with records. > > Ask Ezra Levant. > > Ezra Levant, the Canadian blogger who was just ordered to pay a $25,000 judgment to Giacomo Vigna, a Canadian government official and lawyer, for … making fun of Vigna. > > Giacomo Vigna is a professional censor. Levant, who has a history as a free speech activist and opponent of Canada’s censorship commission, has been censored for the offense of … criticizing a censor. > > Specifically, Vigna is an attorney for the Canadian Human Rights Commission, the government body charged with censoring hate speech. In March 2008, Levant made fun of Vigna for his successful efforts to halt a hearing in which staff of the Human Rights Commission were to be cross-examined about their curious activities on the internet (among other things, former HRC lawyer Richard Warman, a professional plaintiff, used a pseudonym to reveal the name of and post an apology by an ex-white supremacist on an internet forum populated by neo-Nazis). Vigna claimed, in an effort to halt the hearing, that: > > I don’t feel in a serene state of mind to proceed with the file today. I don’t feel very well. I feel dizzy, I feel anxiety, and I am not in a serene state of mind to proceed with this file today. > > And got the hearing, in a high-profile and politically charged speech prosecution, put off with the promise he would produce a doctor’s note. For which Vigna was richly, and deservedly, mocked by Levant. > > [snip] > > And a costly mistake it was. It cost Levant $25,000, on top of untold legal fees, to learn that lesson. And it will cost him more on appeal, the outcome of which isn’t certain in a country as hostile to free political speech as Canada. > > Levant, wisely, hasn’t said a word about the verdict. Neither have many of other Canadian bloggers from whom we’d expect to hear after a travesty like this. They’re probably taking stock of their options, with their lawyers, because they’re being sued by the censors themselves. > > And that’s the point. Vigna didn’t file this suit to salvage his reputation. A prosecutor who would beg off from trial by whining about his inner feelings will have no reputation to save once word gets out. Vigna filed this suit to stifle Levant’s legitimate criticism of his agency and his methods. To make an example of Levant, and to warn more timid souls who would dare to criticize the censors of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. To censor an inconvenient critic who couldn’t be silenced by the usual accusation of hate speech. [More](https://www.popehat.com/2007/11/27/calling-the-censor-a-censor-gets-you-in-trouble-in-canada/): > [@](#): > > Canada, all joking aside, is a separate country, and free to develop its own legal norms. > > And we are free to mock those norms when they suck. > > Case in point — a recent example of Canada’s increasingly spotty record on freedom of expression, as [seen here at Volokh](http://www.volokh.com/posts/1196120116.shtml). The bullet: former Canadian Human Rights Commission lawyer files complaints against web sites featuring “hate speech,” as permitted by Canadian law. Free speech advocate (who has defended unpleasant expression such as anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial) calls him, among other things, an “enemy of free speech.” Lawyer sues — and wins. Because he’s not an enemy of free speech, you see, because that speech isn’t free in Canada, QED. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/23 "2018-06-24T06:20:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I’ll ignore your _tu quoque_. It’s irrelevant, and only meant to incite an angry response I’d regret. > > I will say that, even limiting our consideration to modern events, [Canada has a long way to go in terms of freedom of expression](https://www.popehat.com/2010/11/22/new-york-times-co-v-sullivan-my-love-letter-to-the-united-states-supreme-court-and-the-first-amendment/): > > [More](https://www.popehat.com/2007/11/27/calling-the-censor-a-censor-gets-you-in-trouble-in-canada/): It wasn’t “meant to incite an angry response” as I have no issue with you personally, and Lord knows there are enough real assholes around without starting flame wars with reasonable posters. I was disagreeing with you, rather strongly, I admit. And I disagree again, so I have one more thing to say and then am happy to let the matter drop. I do get worked up sometimes about how incredibly poorly Americans understand the hate speech laws in Canada (and, indeed, similar laws in most other countries). For one thing, actual hate speech laws are part of the criminal code and are hardly ever used except in the very specific and highly extraordinary circumstances in which they apply. None of the examples you cited had anything to do with that. People get them confused with quasi-judicial rulings by Human Rights Tribunals (which I’m not a fan of, but that’s another story) and with ordinary actions for libel. And to be clear, that’s what your cited examples were: libel actions. Can you be sued for libel and defamation in the US? Yes, you can. You know that. Ezra Levant, in case you’re not aware, is a piece of shit on a par with Steve Bannon who has faced some half-dozen libel actions (one from George Soros, no less, whom he falsely accused of having been a Nazi collaborator as a youth) some of which resulted in rulings against him and others that were settled by publicly withdrawing his defamatory lies and apologizing. Notwithstanding the hysteria from the blog you were quoting, these were all civil suits for libel that had nothing to do with deep dark conspiracies against free speech by some looming government bureaucracy one step away from dictatorship (more or less paraphrasing one of the more hilarious lines from that blog). So was the second example you cited, though that one was a bit incoherent. Levant, being the piece of shit that he is, has also been in trouble several times for violating the ethics standards of the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council. Again, something that could be dredged up by the uninformed as another example of looming dictatorship, etc., but actually nothing more than a set of voluntary ethics standards by the broadcasting industry. The other point I was making, perhaps not very clearly, is that the culture of society is probably more important to ensuring freedom of expression than clinging to absolutist interpretations of principles. I quoted a few facts about the Red Scare before. Here are a few more, taken from Bill Bryson’s book _The Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid: A Memoir_, in which Bryson mostly reminisces about growing up in the 1950s but also adds some fascinating and shocking context to what those times were like: At the peak of the Red Scare, thirty-two of the forty-eight states had loyalty oaths of one kind or another. In New York, Oakley notes, it was necessary to swear a loyalty oath to gain a fishing permit. In Indiana loyalty oaths were administered to professional wrestlers. The Communist Control Act of 1954 made it a federal offense to communicate any Communist thoughts by any means, including by semaphore. In Connecticut it became illegal to criticize the government, or to speak ill of the army or the American flag. In Texas you could be sent to prison for twenty years for being a Communist. In Birmingham, Alabama, it was illegal merely to be seen conversing with a Communist. HUAC issued millions of leaflets entitled “One Hundred Things You Should Know About Communism,” detailing what to look out for in the behavior of neighbors, friends, and family … Westbrook Pegler, a syndicated columnist, suggested that anyone found to have been a Communist at any time in his life should simply be put to death. … Such was the hysteria that it wasn’t actually necessary to have done anything wrong to get in trouble. In 1950, three former FBI agents published a book called _Red Channels: The Report of Communist Influence in Radio and Television_, accusing 151 celebrities—among them Leonard Bernstein, Lee J. Cobb, Burgess Meredith, Orson Welles, Edward G. Robinson, and the stripper Gypsy Rose Lee—of various seditious acts. Among the shocking misdeeds of which the performers stood accused were speaking out against religious intolerance, opposing fascism, and supporting world peace and the United Nations. None had any connection with the Communist Party or had ever shown any Communist sympathies. Even so, many of them couldn’t find work for years afterward unless (like Edward G. Robinson) they agreed to appear before HUAC as a friendly witness and name names. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/24 "2018-06-24T10:27:00Z")
FTR: It’s Lafayette Square, part of President’s Park. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/25 "2018-06-24T12:38:11Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I have this to say to Tracye Redd: **Get the fuck off my side, you moron.** > > There is no legal definition of “hate speech” in American law, and that’s how it should be. “Hate speech” is a deliberately nebulous concept, something which is used to silence opposition, and it should never be defined in American law. Therefore, what she said is, one, legally incoherent, but, more to the point, two, indicative that she doesn’t like our strong free speech protections. And to that I say, do you think the establishment _wouldn’t_ have banned Martin Luther King’s speeches as hate speech if they had the chance? Why do you think _you_ have the right to speak the way you do? Do you think censorship _can’t_ be used aganst good ideas as well as bad? > > Yes, the idiots put people’s lives in danger. **That isn’t because of their speech, it’s because of their actions.** Why the fuck are you so completely misinterpreting what he said? Those actions are exactly the thing he is talking about. That’s exactly what makes it not free speech. He said that, when their protests put people’s lives in danger, that makes it no longer free speech. And, yes, before you making frothing dialog about hate speech laws, you should probably actually learn what they are. They would not in any way have stopped King from making his speeches. Finally, it’s ridiculous to try and make arguments that assume the U.S. is the better country, and that the other countries with different laws are the bad ones. It’s very possible the other laws are actually better in this area. I’m not making that argument, but I am saying the null hypothesis is not “America is right, everyone else is wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/26 "2018-06-24T12:45:43Z")
My understanding is that he’s had a hard time getting people who would want to come. He couldn’t get anyone else to set up a protest, so he’s trying to set up another one himself. Problem is, people saw the first one backfire so badly that they don’t want to do another one. Especially not one that’s now even more explicitly racist, while the other one hid under “Unite the Right” branding. And he’s even taking it further North, into full on liberal territory. I actually am anticipating how badly this will go. I hope that there are enough principled counterprotesters to troll them into getting the police involved. And then maybe Trump pardons them, because he’s on his pardon kick. I hate racists as much as the next guy. Probably more, really. But that’s exactly why I want to see this bomb that is waiting to go off. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/27 "2018-06-24T15:04:44Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I have this to say to Tracye Redd: **Get the fuck off my side, you moron.** > > There is no legal definition of “hate speech” in American law, and that’s how it should be. “Hate speech” is a deliberately nebulous concept, something which is used to silence opposition, and it should never be defined in American law. Therefore, what she said is, one, legally incoherent, but, more to the point, two, indicative that she doesn’t like our strong free speech protections. And to that I say, do you think the establishment _wouldn’t_ have banned Martin Luther King’s speeches as hate speech if they had the chance? Why do you think _you_ have the right to speak the way you do? Do you think censorship _can’t_ be used aganst good ideas as well as bad? > > Yes, the idiots put people’s lives in danger. **That isn’t because of their speech, it’s because of their actions.** Speech _ **is** _ action. Speech has consequences. Sometimes those consequences are heinous enough that that the speech doesn’t deserve any protection. Inciting violence - and keep in mind that violence and murder was successfully incited the very last time these guys demonstrated - is not free speech. It is criminal. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/28 "2018-06-24T15:47:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > My understanding is that he’s had a hard time getting people who would want to come. He couldn’t get anyone else to set up a protest, so he’s trying to set up another one himself. Problem is, people saw the first one backfire so badly that they don’t want to do another one. Especially not one that’s now even more explicitly racist, while the other one hid under “Unite the Right” branding. And he’s even taking it further North, into full on liberal territory. > > I actually am anticipating how badly this will go. I hope that there are enough principled counterprotesters to troll them into getting the police involved. And then maybe Trump pardons them, because he’s on his pardon kick. > > I hate racists as much as the next guy. Probably more, really. But that’s exactly why I want to see this bomb that is waiting to go off. Somebody should gather a shit-ton of tuba and sousaphone players to encircle the perimeter of the square and play [this guy’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI) music for the duration of the rally. I’d contribute to a Kickstarter to fund them. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/29 "2018-06-24T16:16:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Somebody should gather a shit-ton of tuba and sousaphone players to encircle the perimeter of the square and play [this guy’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI) music for the duration of the rally. > > I’d contribute to a Kickstarter to fund them. Oh, that is sublime. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/30 "2018-06-24T17:09:19Z")
They never intended to go through with it, they are only angling to be brutally oppressed. They got their permit, now what? How many are they claiming to expect? Prepare for that, fund that, if needed for porta-potties, emergency medical, brown acid…wait, scratch that, these people can’t handle facts, much less drugs. Start doing that, and they will panic, they will find some reason to cancel and claim they were forced to. Those that are remotely sane don’t want us to see how pitifully few people would show up. Nothing says stupid and empty like “expecting” ten thousand and getting fifty. Give them their moment in the sun, for sunlight is wonderful stuff. Protest the “Occupy” way, with mockery, silliness, and fun. These jerks are desperate to be taken seriously. Don’t. Taco trucks, vegan bratwurst. And, of course, sauerkraut. Oh, yes,\* sauerkraut\*! Get the raging queen commandos out with cross-dressing Hitler cosplay. No worries, won’t happen. Violence by antifas wouldn’t scare them, mockery by Ru Paul wannabes in SS drag? They will bail. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/31 "2018-06-24T18:33:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But he explicitly says its just about promoting white people, _nothing_ against people who aren’t white! Accusing them of racism is wrong. That’s just tearing down without building up, it so negative! This is a _positive_ celebration of white, like _Sound of Music_ but with swastikas! OK, so it’s just a coincidence that they’re a bunch of lousy no good fucking nazi bastards. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/32 "2018-06-24T18:47:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Protest the “Occupy” way, with mockery, silliness, and fun. These jerks are desperate to be taken seriously. Don’t. Taco trucks, vegan bratwurst. And, of course, sauerkraut. Oh, yes,\* sauerkraut\*! Get the raging queen commandos out with cross-dressing Hitler cosplay. > > No worries, won’t happen. Violence by antifas wouldn’t scare them, mockery by Ru Paul wannabes in SS drag? They will bail. A full-on performance of _Springtime for Hitler_ would be a great counterdemonstration, but I think some of the Whites’ Rightists wouldn’t realize it was a parody. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Somebody should gather a shit-ton of tuba and sousaphone players to encircle the perimeter of the square and play [this guy’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI) music for the duration of the rally. > > I’d contribute to a Kickstarter to fund them. I love the woman who keeps accusing the tuba-player of being the one who’s inbred.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/33 "2018-06-24T19:01:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’d like to see 100,000 or more show up to protest the 400 Nazis and remind them that Americans hate Nazis (particularly Illinois Nazis, I should point out) so much that Americans actually stopped everything and went to war so we could legally kill Nazis. > > The Park Service will likely issue the permit; do counter-protest groups need one or can they just show up? What if it’s not actually a group, just 100,000 like-minded people all independently deciding to head down to Lafayette Park on those two days to yell at Nazis? > > Because fuck you, you fucking Nazi fucks. I’d be surprised if there didn’t turn out to be a much, _much_ larger counter-protest, and from this I predict the nazi-boys will resort to flash mobs/gatherings, after this. > [@elucidator](#): > > …brown acid…wait, scratch that, these people can’t handle facts, much less drugs. Heh - this one time acidhead misread that as the other kind of acid. (which would be a really shitty scary thing):eek: > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Somebody should gather a shit-ton of tuba and sousaphone players to encircle the perimeter of the square and play [this guy’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI) music for the duration of the rally. > > I’d contribute to a Kickstarter to fund them. Or pull [Bob Log](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df_AaN1CM6A) along on a platform / dolly alongside them. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/34 "2018-06-24T19:52:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The _Sound of Music_ had swastikas, too! So it’s _exactly_ like the _Sound of Music_! Well, OK, with a little bit of role reversal! And shittier Music … but I can’t really be mad that the White Nationalists are going to make a display of themselves just as Americans start thinking about the elections. Also, James Fields’ trial is set for November 23, so he’ll be all over the news on Election Day. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/35 "2018-06-24T21:06:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I do get worked up sometimes about how incredibly poorly Americans understand the hate speech laws in Canada (and, indeed, similar laws in most other countries). I understand them so poorly, I made points you can’t actually refute, so you throw irrelevancies out in what you hope is a tone of voice sufficiently calm to make _you_ seem like the adult here. **If you can’t defend your own system without irrelevant attacks on someone else, you’ve lost.** ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/36 "2018-06-24T21:12:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why the fuck are you so completely misinterpreting what he said? I’m not. > [@](#): > > Those actions are exactly the thing he is talking about. That’s exactly what makes it not free speech. Factually incorrect. > [@](#): > > He said that, when their protests put people’s lives in danger, that makes it no longer free speech. Also incorrect. > [@](#): > > And, yes, before you making frothing dialog about hate speech laws, you should probably actually learn what they are. They would not in any way have stopped King from making his speeches. Yes, because censors only censor those who are on the wrong side of history. > [@](#): > > Finally, it’s ridiculous to try and make arguments that assume the U.S. is the better country, and that the other countries with different laws are the bad ones. It’s very possible the other laws are actually better in this area. I gave **wolfpup** every opportunity to make this case, and they refused. They were utterly unable to do so, and they knew it, so they declined to even make the effort. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > Speech _ **is** _ action. No, not in the context we mean here. > [@](#): > > Inciting violence - and keep in mind that violence and murder was successfully incited the very last time these guys demonstrated - is not free speech. It is criminal. Not that simple. Learn some law before you further make a fool of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/37 "2018-06-24T22:40:34Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I understand them so poorly, I made points you can’t actually refute, so you throw irrelevancies out in what you hope is a tone of voice sufficiently calm to make _you_ seem like the adult here. > > **If you can’t defend your own system without irrelevant attacks on someone else, you’ve lost.** > [@Derleth](#): > > I gave **wolfpup** every opportunity to make this case, and they refused. They were utterly unable to do so, and they knew it, so they declined to even make the effort. I really thought we were done here, and without too much drama. I really wasn’t expecting you to so vividly highlight your lack of comprehension and ratchet up the hostility. You didn’t make any points, you quoted an activist blog that clearly has no understanding of Canadian law (or culture) and engages in frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria like characterizing civil libel actions as somehow one step short of Orwellian government tyranny. My refutation of this nonsense was perfectly straightforward and in no way subject to misunderstanding, but you chose to simply ignore it. Here, let me put it in bold and small words for you: The examples you cited **were all libel actions, _and had nothing whatsoever to do with the criminal hate speech laws_.** The specific first one you built your argument around was directed against a shitstain with a long history of defamation. The case was a civil suit for libel, _Vigna v Levant_. **What the fuck do you think this has to do with government, criminal hate speech laws, or government “censorship”?** This is not a hard concept to understand and your comprehension failures are not my problem. My Red Scare examples were not a _tu quoque_ firstly because your argument was wrong and was answered accordingly, and secondly because your bleating about absolutist interpretations of free speech protections runs pretty thin in light of prior history, which is why examples of the Red Scare that I brought up [in this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21042296&postcount=23) and the previous one are so relevant. Yes, free speech protections are vitally important, but **so is the kind of balanced and fair society that is promoted by reasonable limitations on extreme hate speech** , otherwise you get the kind of situation I described in that post, where you can be arrested and have your career ruined just for belonging to a peace organization or being suspected of even talking to a communist, as indeed many Americans were. Seriously. Read those points about 1950s America again. And tell me, does this sound like something consistent with your understanding of the protections of the First Amendment that you value so much: [INDENT]Communists and Communist sympathizers have no place on our air. It is the duty of the station licensee (and the network to which a portion of that responsibility necessarily is delegated) to ascertain that those who harbor views contrary to our form of government be denied access to our microphones. – _Broadcasting_ magazine, August 15, 1949[/INDENT] And that’s nothing compared to those who were arrested, jailed, defamed, or had their careers ruined over suspicions of having said the wrong things. The First Amendment existed then, just as it does now. Oh, and speaking of libel suits, I happened to be reading about Westbrook Pegler out of curiousity – the guy who said that anyone who had even been a Communist at any time should be put to death. Turns out he was a rabid right-wing columnist much along the lines of Ezra Levant, and, like Levant in Canada, he plied his trade protected by free speech, which was fine. But, also like Levant, he was not protected from libel actions, and in 1955 was in fact [successfully sued for the largest libel award in US history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Pegler). ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/38 "2018-06-24T23:01:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Somebody should gather a shit-ton of tuba and sousaphone players to encircle the perimeter of the square and play [this guy’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI) music for the duration of the rally. > > I’d contribute to a Kickstarter to fund them. I’m too lazy today to google for it, but I read some time ago about an annual Nazi march in (I think) Germany. Rather than counter-protest, people get together and treat it as a charity run. They mark the street for the march with distance markers, get folks to pledge money for every walker who completes the course (with all money of course going to anti-Nazi organizations) and cheer and throw confetti on all who complete the march. They put up signs to thank the marchers – “Your efforts have resulted in xxxx Euros going to anti-Nazi programs.” I’d contribute to that. If they’re not marching, set it up so an amount gets donated to BLM for every attendee. Have folks with counters at each entrance, and change the sign for every so many attendees. Suppose they actually get the 10000 people they say they will. If you pledge $.01 per attendee, you’d donate 100 if they actually get that many people. Suppose we get 10000 people to each pledge .01 for each attendee. If only 50 showed up, that would still be $5000 to BLM. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/39 "2018-06-25T02:05:19Z")
Who has the BLM boney fidos to accept such money on their behalf? Other than that, I like it, non-violent mockery of assholes, the cleanest of good clean fun! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/40 "2018-06-25T14:18:43Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I have this to say to Tracye Redd: **Get the fuck off my side, you moron.** > > There is no legal definition of “hate speech” in American law, and that’s how it should be. “Hate speech” is a deliberately nebulous concept, something which is used to silence opposition, and it should never be defined in American law. So it’s a deliberately nebulous concept and that’s bad, but should not be made specific, because that is bad? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575.md?page=3)