# August 2018 White Civil Rights Rally in Washington, DC. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575 "2018-06-22T15:54:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/161 "2018-08-14T10:58:22Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > The Nazis were able to take over because Germany was a mess, it had just been through a horrific war, the economy sucked, there was widespread and very well-grounded fear of communism and anarchism (two other things that can take over when a country is a mess) - all the circumstances were properly aligned for the Nazis to rise, more than just “people not caring enough to stop them.” The US isn’t Nazi Germany, but it doesn’t have to be. Nazi Germany does not have to serve as the benchmark; there are other, less extreme but nevertheless relevant examples of authoritarian regimes which can illustrate the parallels we’re observing now. We’re entering an age of irrevocable authoritarianism which, if it comes to pass, would permanently alter the character of American politics and society. We’re not quite past the Rubicon, but we’re getting closer all the time. You made reference to the German economy - well what about the American economy the last 10, 20, 40 years, which has seen the fruits of economic expansion go to the wealthy and the costs of contraction paid for by the middle and lower classes. Wealth and income inequality is at its highest point since the late 1920s. The American economy, despite what you see, has largely sucked for the majority of people over the last decade or more. The financial crisis of 2008 wiped out trillions in wealth. The economic growth since 2009 has largely been economic growth without wage growth; it’s unprecedented to have a recovery so “strong” without wage growth. Even now, when we finally have wage growth, it’s eaten up by inflation. But the impact of the recession was more than just economic; it caused Americans to lose faith in their government and other institutions. It caused Americans to believe that the institutions that support democracy essentially don’t work. I would also submit that American democracy is increasingly behaving and looking less like a democracy that any of our democratic allies would recognize. Consider the fact that, through gerrymandering, a minority of voters achieved a majority of legislative representation in congress. A minority of voters have achieved control of the executive branch, not once but twice over the past 4 elections. In turn, they have, and will continue to have, a major impact on the judiciary as well. Thus we have a situation in which political minorities are nevertheless able to win control over the government. That is not a true democracy, so in a sense, we’re already experiencing a creeping form of authoritarianism. > [@Lamoral](#): > > You’re forgetting about the concept of checks and balances. Whatever authoritarian leanings Trump may have, are still kept restrained by the existing system of government which is the cumulative result of centuries of maintenance by all the various people and groups who have been the stewards of American democracy. It’s not all going to fall apart just because we have a president who wants to be an authoritarian and a handful of racists around the country who idealize the Nazis. What checks? What balances? We have Republicans in Congress who are complicit in trying to help the President escape accountability for high crimes and misdemeanors. It’s clear that no matter what Mueller’s investigation finds, the president’s Republican allies are going to protect him as long as he is politically popular enough to protect. We have a sitting president who has made it clear, who has articulated, that he feels the law does not apply to him, and the Republican “majority” (again, not really a majority) has given no indication that it intends to serve as a check on his power. I don’t think you understand how these things work. You’re using a very cursory knowledge of one of history’s extreme examples of authoritarianism, but authoritarianism is more complex and can appear in different forms. > [@Lamoral](#): > > The military is also one of those stewards of democracy and all of the senior officers who went through the Naval Academy and West Point with strict honor codes, and studied history and political science, and all the fighter pilots and commanders of bomber wings and commanders of nuclear submarines, these people are not just going to let the country fall apart, not by a damn sight…don’t even tell me “oh, all the military officers let Germany go down the drain/sided with the Nazis”, Germany’s military at the time was a joke, it was totally incompetent, there were still aristocrats BUYING commissions within living memory of Hitler. Their military did not have remotely the same kind of cohesion that America’s does. Let me be blunt: the military is never, ever the steward of democracy. And the great problem this country has is in naively believing that it is and ever could be. The military is a top, down chain-of-command institution whose chief responsibilities are preserving national security. They operate at the behest of the commander-in-chief of the military, which happens to be the president, who happens to be democratically elected (well, kinda). The moment you have a military that acts against a democratically elected president and congress, you no longer have a democracy; you have a military junta. It doesn’t matter how benevolent it appears. The spirit of democracy falls into the hands of an institution that is among the most authoritarian of any you will find in a government. Let me be clear: I respect the members of the military. That’s not the point. The point is, only a nation of fools who are begging for authoritarianism would place more trust in the military to protect a democracy than they would the institutions that were created for that purpose. And yet, lo and behold, it appears that’s exactly what is happening in this country: > **[Military, Small Business, Police Still Stir Most Confidence](https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/military-small-business-police-stir-confidence.aspx)** > > Americans' confidence in institutions is broadly stable, but organized religion has sunk to another low while big business and banks have recovered slightly. Two of the three institutions people trust the most? The military and the police. The two they trust the least? The media and the people they vote for. Of course there are reasons for this. The military is a non-partisan government agency that has a structure that both political parties have respected enough not to inject political influence over the years. But consider what is happening now, with the current commander in chief, who repeatedly rejects his own non-partisan intelligence agencies’ findings of Russian involvement in our political process and who displays vindictiveness against former members of the intelligence community, threatening to revoke their security clearances for the ‘crime’ of contradicting his claims. It’s already clear that this president is willing to politicize any institution that falls under his control: the military, the national police, the federal prosecutors who staff his Department of Justice. In short, this country is in deep, deep trouble. We probably have only one or two more election cycles left, one or two more chances, before American democracy is damaged irreversibly. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/162 "2018-08-14T12:43:17Z")
Y’know folks, “it’s not as bad as the real historic Nazis” is one goddamn low bar to clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/163 "2018-08-14T13:15:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If this board leaned right and if there happened to be a vocal group advocating violence to silence socialists I’d be against that as well. And they’d call you a cuck and ban you within minutes. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/164 "2018-08-14T13:45:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > , We’re entering an age of irrevocable authoritarianism which, if it comes to pass, would permanently alter the character of American politics and society. We’re not quite past the Rubicon, but we’re getting closer all the time. > … > In short, this country is in deep, deep trouble. We probably have only one or two more election cycles left, one or two more chances, before American democracy is damaged irreversibly. This is a thought-provoking post worthy of debate, but it’s posted in a random BBQ Pit thread. @ **asahi** — I hope you use this theme to start a thread in GD. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/165 "2018-08-14T14:41:02Z")
I would commend **asahi** working at a suicide prevention line, so long as it does not involve answering phones. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/166 "2018-08-14T15:18:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would commend **asahi** working at a suicide prevention line, so long as it does not involve answering phones. Actually, “You’re right, everything you’re experiencing sucks and it’s not surprising you’re feeling suicidal” is a really effective approach. Not “You should just give up” of course. But I have never read that in **asahi** ’s posts. . ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/167 "2018-08-14T16:48:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And they’d call you a cuck and ban you within minutes. You are probably right. There is definitely intolerance and nastiness from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/168 "2018-08-14T16:58:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Completely wrong, as usual. I have engaged right-wing idiocy in person. If there were an intelligent right-wing message board I might argue there, but I think “intelligent right-wing” is almost an oxymoron. > > And right here at SDMB I often argue _against_ extreme political correctness, to the point where I’m almost accused of racism or misogyny myself. > > I think this is another lie. You link to three **octopus** posts where you come across as a sincere seeker of truth or justice and I’ll link to nine where you come across as a hateful right-winger. > > First of all: When did I call for “violent assault,” you fucking liar? I already told you that charge was false; can you even read as well as you write? > > Conversely the real threat comes from your ilk resorting to violence — in fact, it already has. What’s your solution? Rational thinkers and centrists need to give the right-wing what it wants so it doesn’t get even more violent? You are truly delusional. I like the way you use the weasel phrase “come across.” Yeah, on a site that contains nuts who advocate extra-judicial violence for speech advocating freedom of speech does “come across” as right wing hate. I also think your selective memory of recent violence is revealing. You don’t mention anything at all about all the assaults that take place that come from Antifa and similar left wing radicals. Furthermore, your hypocrisy in calling me a liar when you say it’s “my ilk” that are violent is remarkable. You, and many others, take the intellectually dishonest view that being in favor for civil rights makes one in favor of every permutation of the usage of said rights. You are far more likely, to support mob violence to suppress people than I am. You calling others a liar is nothing more than a hypocritical projection. Potty mouth. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/169 "2018-08-14T16:58:48Z")
IOW, “I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. And you have – you had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent, and nobody wants to say that, but I’ll say it right now. You had a group – you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.” Very fine people, on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/170 "2018-08-14T17:38:52Z")
Kinda like the bomb in _The Mouse That Roared_, the super powerful Qbomb that didn’t work. Making it one of the best bombs ever built. The massive rally of extreme righties was a total dud, and we should all be grateful to Whomsoever we generally direct such gratitude. One thing did work out for them, they managed to attract attention. Being derision, mockery and contempt. Sometimes things actually go pretty well. The peasants rejoice, and the Ironic Buddha chuckles. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/171 "2018-08-14T18:13:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Kinda like the bomb in _The Mouse That Roared_, the super powerful Qbomb that didn’t work. Making it one of the best bombs ever built. The massive rally of extreme righties was a total dud, and we should all be grateful to Whomsoever we generally direct such gratitude. > > One thing did work out for them, they managed to attract attention. Being derision, mockery and contempt. Sometimes things actually go pretty well. The peasants rejoice, and the Ironic Buddha chuckles. Yeah, funny that the republic didn’t collapse when 5 nuts held a rally.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/172 "2018-08-14T18:48:17Z")
Asahi, the thing is that in terms of there really isn’t that much support of the facist state you imagine, even among the halls of power. Trump wants such a state and so does some 40% of his supporters (representing about 20% of the electorate), and there may be a Republican senator, or Congressman here and there fantasizing over epaulets but thats about it. The Congressmen who are holding water for Trump aren’t doing so because they figure they will be Capo’s in the new regime, they are actually pretty happy with the way things are now and the want them to stay that way, which means getting re-elected. So no they aren’t going to do anything rock the boat and disparage their brand, and they will do everything they can to make sure that they don’t get voted out of office, But they aren’t going to take active measures to bring about a regime in which they can be executed at a whim should they displease their overlord. The high esteem that people have for the military is precisely because they have stayed out of politics. Sure there were a handful of generals who opposed Obama, and more that indicated an opposition to Trump’s cluelessness. But by and large they kept their mouths shut and did their duty to their country. I don’t see any interest in their ranks helping a party to seize power. Working our way up to the real power brokers, Authoritarianism is bad for buisiness. They are making money hand over fist under the current system and are not going to be open to a situation where their billions could be seized for the benefit of the state. We’ve already seen the Koch brothers jumping ship, where the money goes political power follows. Heck even Putin doesn’t want the US to become a dictatorship. He wants a weak disfunctional US government that is too busy with its own internal infighting to notice what he does on the world stage. An Autocratic regime is that opposite of what he wants. Now if Trump was more capable and more globally charismatic and inspiring it might be possible for him to foster grow his movement, work the levers of power, make the deals and grow the Republican majority into a one party state with him supreme leader. But he’s not that bright and doesn’t have any real charisma. All he is good at is sewing division and chaos (which is why he’s perfectly suited for Putin). As far as this being the first step down the road to fascism, I also don’t see that. There is no obvious successor to Trump. The closest might be Bannon, but he is weaker now than he was before Trump. Post Trump I see the Trumpist movement breaking down into factionalism and infighting as Guilliani, Bannon, Kushner, Palin and whoever else fight it out for control. So while I do see a slow slide into plutocratic oligarchy, and Jim Crow style voter disenfranchisement, I don’t think that Fascism it in our forseable future. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/173 "2018-08-14T19:07:56Z")
I find Asahi’s post adorably pollyannaish, we are well past the point of no return and will never be countrymen again. We have an entire party based on white nationalism and it controls all three branches plus the US military has a white nationalist problem. Forget the 24 idiots who marched in DC. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/174 "2018-08-14T20:41:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Y’know folks, “it’s not as bad as the real historic Nazis” is one goddamn low bar to clear. Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/175 "2018-08-14T20:53:20Z")
\*\*octopus \*\*gets really angry when anyone insults Nazis. But his level of anger when anyone insults black people is basically zero. Like when \*\*Shodan \*\*was talking about murdering black protesters with his car, and \*\*octopus \*\*sat quietly with his thumb up his ass. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/176 "2018-08-14T22:18:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > \*\*octopus \*\*gets really angry when anyone insults Nazis. But his level of anger when anyone insults black people is basically zero. Like when \*\*Shodan \*\*was talking about murdering black protesters with his car, and \*\*octopus \*\*sat quietly with his thumb up his ass. Weird. Yeah, I don’t see every thread on this forum. You know there is something called real life and the real world which exists outside. Perhaps you should experience it sometime? Pervert. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/177 "2018-08-14T22:28:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, I don’t see every thread on this forum. You know there is something called real life and the real world which exists outside. Perhaps you should experience it sometime? > > Pervert. Yeah, of course you don’t, you only pop up when someone insults Nazis. I suppose you only read threads about Nazis, as those are the only group that you ever stick up for. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/178 "2018-08-14T22:48:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, I don’t see every thread on this forum. Yeah, on the threads you do participate in, like this one, you clearly denounce the mob violence that resulted in the death of Heather Heyer and the injury of 19 others… …oh wait, my mistake, you weren’t denouncing the actual mob violence conducted by Nazis, you were complaining about hypothetical left-wing mob violence that didn’t actually happen. You should complain more about that one time a left-wing protester swung a bike chain, and carefully avoid mentioning the 50 or so people who have been murdered by right-wing extremists in the time between that incident and now. Because it’s hypothetical message-board mob violence that’s the biggest threat to America. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/179 "2018-08-14T22:57:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, of course you don’t, you only pop up when someone insults Nazis. I suppose you only read threads about Nazis, as those are the only group that you ever stick up for. There you go lying again. It’s not that hard to be honest. You should try it sometime. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, on the threads you do participate in, like this one, you clearly denounce the mob violence that resulted in the death of Heather Heyer and the injury of 19 others… > > …oh wait, my mistake, you weren’t denouncing the actual mob violence conducted by Nazis, you were complaining about hypothetical left-wing mob violence that didn’t actually happen. > > You should complain more about that one time a left-wing protester swung a bike chain, and carefully avoid mentioning the 50 or so people who have been murdered by right-wing extremists in the time between that incident and now. Because it’s hypothetical message-board mob violence that’s the biggest threat to America. There you go lying again. Claiming that left wing violence is merely hypothetical is a lie. Both sides were expecting a fight and they got it. That what you dummies don’t understand. Once violence in response to assembly or speech is acceptable you can’t control who gets “consequenced” or “punched.” And yes, the left’s insistence that free speech = hate speech and hate speech justifies violence is the biggest threat to America. The few right wing nuts marching or marginalized and powerless and are only being used as a means to empower radical leftists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575/180 "2018-08-14T22:58:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You are probably right. There is definitely intolerance and nastiness from both sides. Maybe, but so far the running-people-over part seems unilateral. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/august-2018-white-civil-rights-rally-in-washington-dc/816575.md?page=10)