# Aussie Dopers (and other travellers) – Have you / would you climb Uluru? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734 "2014-07-22T13:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/41 "2014-07-25T06:06:29Z")
I don’t know, I’m not getting a racist vibe from posters here (although I like to think the best of people in general). But I do think there’s an attitude from some that the Aboriginals are “primitive” and therefore their beliefs and desires aren’t as important. And I don’t get this idea that because they didn’t build the rock, they can’t own it or their ownership is somehow not significant. People can own land in our society. They got there first, so they own it. They don’t have to build something on it for it to have cultural significance. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/42 "2014-07-25T07:34:45Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > They don’t climb it to clean it, guard it, or for any other reason. Their law/culture forbids climbing it. Is this actually the case, that it’s forbidden? I was under the impression (from the link in my OP) that: _The climbing route is a sacred path of spiritual significance that is only taken by few Aboriginal men on special occasions._ So would assume that it is occasionally climbed during certain men’s \*walkabout \*as a rite of passage - is this not correct? [QUOTE=Penfeather] I think the none-too-hidden subtext to a lot of the responses in this thread is “Who cares what a bunch of dumb blacks want?” [/QUOTE] Really, you’re seeing that in the comments here? Look to me like pure projection on your part. It’s the _idea_ of inanimate, natural rocks being held to be sacred and thus untouchable that people are questioning, it’s not at all related to who it is who holds that belief. And most people have clearly stated they are willing to respect that belief, regardless of whether they deem it plausible or not. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/43 "2014-07-25T08:02:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sidetrack and highjack, but, no way. It’s open to the air. Birds poop in it. The purest water on earth would be in deep caverns, in cavities fed only from microfissures where even bats and blind fish can’t poop in it. Wildlife crap it coped with for millions of years. It is not completely open to the skies, and immeasurably deep. (Literally. Nobody knows how deep it is.) So yeah, let’s just shit in it anyway - we’re tourists! ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/44 "2014-07-25T08:21:30Z")
I can live without climbing on it, though I’d not be respecting their beliefs so much as their wishes. Their beliefs are just as much meaningless fairy tale as any other culture’s traditions or religions. (I will respect a church building, as it can be great architecture; I will respect a ‘Person of the Cloth’ because they are someone in authority; I will not respect a mythical being or its arbitrary rules) I would like to visit Uluru one day, just because that’s the kind of thing you do, but I’d prefer to climb somewhere there’s something to look at, like in the Blue Mountains or Kakadu. ---
**Author:** ![Balou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/49beb7/32.png) [@Balou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balou)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/45 "2014-07-25T08:39:18Z")
Me my ex climbed it years ago. It was her idea and to be honest I felt a little weird doing it, at least at the start. My girlfriend wasn’t bothered in the least though, she was just like: ‘_I’m better than you Uluru! I’m going to conquer you Uluru!_’ This really should have been a warning sign. :smack: She powered to the top but I actually ended up passing out about a third of the way up. She returned to me a couple of hours later and half carried me down to the bottom. Traditional belief were far form my thoughts at that point. I managed to crawl down to our memory foam mattresses back at home [from this site here](http://www.zenbedrooms.com/mattresses.html) and lay they for the next twenty hours or so. Spiritual beliefs of not, i wouldn’t recommend climbing Uluru. Atleast not with my ex-girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/46 "2014-07-25T09:50:13Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > Is this actually the case, that it’s forbidden? I was under the impression (from the link in my OP) that: > > _The climbing route is a sacred path of spiritual significance that is only taken by few Aboriginal men on special occasions._ > > So would assume that it is occasionally climbed during certain men’s \*walkabout \*as a rite of passage - is this not correct? Hmm, well, she lives up that way, maybe she knows something I don’t. But everything I can find suggests that Aboriginal people don’t climb Uluru. from [Reconciliation Australia](http://oldsite.reconciliation.org.au/getfile?id=81&file=Uluru_climb_sep_15.pdf): > [@](#): > > The tourist ‘climb’ follows the traditional route taken by the ancestral Mala men when they arrived at Uluru. The Traditional Owners do not climb the rock out of respect for the great cultural and spiritual significance of the Mala story. Because of the importance of this story, the Traditional Owners ask that visitors do not climb the rock either. [Guardian article](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/09/people-still-climbing-uluru-closure): > [@](#): > > “Anangu never climb to the top of Uluru, knowing that Tjukurpa goes all around the base,” said Alice. She etched the story of Langkata, the blue-tongued lizard man, in the burnt red sand. > \ > It has always been wrong to climb. [Uluru-KataTjuta knowledge for tour guides](http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/tourism/uluru/operating/visitorsafety/requirements.html): > [@](#): > > The message from Anangu traditional owners of Uluru is simple – ‘We don’t climb, please don’t climb’. They ask visitors to show the same respect and not climb their sacred rock. > > “If you worry about Aboriginal law, then leave it, don’t climb it. The chain on the path leading to the top of the rock is still there if you want to climb it. You should think about Tjukurpa [traditional knowledge] and stay on the ground. Please don’t climb.” > > - Barbara Tjikatu, Traditional Owner Walkabout is not a rite of passage exactly, it just means to go off somewhere, travelling around, for any number of reasons. Initiation ceremonies are performed in caves at the base of Uluru, not at the top. As for your follow-up question, I wouldn’t climb the Devil’s Marbles either. I think it’s cool having different cultures in this country and I’m happy to respect them. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/47 "2014-07-25T10:04:03Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > Really, you’re seeing that in the comments here? Look to me like pure projection on your part. It’s difficult to read comments like > [@](#): > > Yeah, this is what I was thinking. A bunch of stone age wanderers traipsing across a wasteland 10,000 years ago _{sic}_\* happen across a bigass rock and decide it’s magical…probably because it’s the only feature they’ve seen for miles. Pardon me if I don’t respect their superstition. as anything else but “haw haw, lookit them dumb darkies an their idjit notions”. Now pardon me while I have to gesture ritually to a decorated piece of cloth hanging on a stick. But don’t let me stop you climbing the stick to blow your nose on the cloth; maybe if there was a _law_ against it I wouldn’t, but it’s not like general disapprobation can tell me not to. \*more like 50,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/48 "2014-07-25T10:46:19Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > It’s difficult to read comments like _\_ > as anything else but “haw haw, lookit them dumb darkies an their idjit notions”. Where exactly does that quotation reference the colour of their skin? It’s a comment on the veracity of creation myths in general, and could equally apply to any or all cultures around the globe. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/49 "2014-07-25T12:18:55Z")
stone age wanders = primitive = black, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/50 "2014-07-25T12:19:37Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > It’s a comment on the veracity of creation myths in general, and could equally apply to any or all cultures around the globe. I respectfully suggest that a site where where geography and culture collide in a particularly sensitive way _and_ where the rights of the local indigenous population that has had the shit kicked out of them for the last 250 odd years are at issue may not be the best place to espouse your undergraduate atheism. Particularly if you’re a/ privileged and b/ not from round there. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/51 "2014-07-25T12:25:57Z")
And whoever posted the following on the site that was linked to in the OP nailed it; anything else is just crass rationalisation: > [@](#): > > “Would you march into a Buddhist temple in shorts and hiking boots because the monks hadn’t pressured you not to? Would you walk up to the altar rail in an English cathedral to take a flash photo of the communicants because the vergers hadn’t asked you not to? If you wouldn’t, you must have constructed some sort of cultural hierarchy in which the sensitivities of indigenous Australians are unimportant in the scheme of things.” ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/52 "2014-07-25T12:50:59Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > It’s difficult to read comments like > > as anything else but “haw haw, lookit them dumb darkies an their idjit notions”. > > Now pardon me while I have to gesture ritually to a decorated piece of cloth hanging on a stick. But don’t let me stop you climbing the stick to blow your nose on the cloth; maybe if there was a _law_ against it I wouldn’t, but it’s not like general disapprobation can tell me not to. > > \*more like 50,000 years ago. You have some serious issued to work through, friend. The first of which is failing to attribute my quote… ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/53 "2014-07-25T12:51:01Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I respectfully suggest that a site where where geography and culture collide in a particularly sensitive way _and_ where the rights of the local indigenous population that has had the shit kicked out of them for the last 250 odd years are at issue may not be the best place to espouse your undergraduate atheism. Particularly if you’re a/ privileged and b/ not from round there. Just a thought. > [@Penfeather](#): > > And whoever posted the following on the site that was linked to in the OP nailed it; anything else is just crass rationalisation: So, these Uluru Aboriginal religious sensibilities should be treated like the religious sensibilities of any other group except that Uluru Aboriginal religious sensibilities are special? ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/54 "2014-07-25T13:57:12Z")
I’m in the “don’t climb it out of respect for the owners” camp. Why doesn’t the lease specifically prohibit climbing? Is climbing simply not addressed in it? Do both parties have different interpretations of the lease? Or was the lease forced on the owners, like certain “treaties” the US government made with native Americans? More importantly, how long until the lease expires? Once it’s time to renew, it can be rewritten to conform to the owners wishes and if the Parks department doesn’t like it, they can go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/55 "2014-07-25T14:15:33Z")
Just to give folks an idea of what we’re talking about, here’s what the trail to the top looked like back in 2005:[https://flic.kr/p/2ZCnKv](https://flic.kr/p/2ZCnKv) ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/56 "2014-07-25T14:31:33Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I respectfully suggest that a site where where geography and culture collide in a particularly sensitive way _and_ where the rights of the local indigenous population that has had the shit kicked out of them for the last 250 odd years are at issue may not be the best place to espouse your undergraduate atheism. Particularly if you’re a/ privileged and b/ not from round there. Just a thought. So, are you now retracting your claim of racism and replacing it with one of ‘general cultural disregard’? If so, then that would certainly be a much closer synopsis of some of the previous comments, I’ll admit. But what follows on then is, where do we draw a line on what cultural behaviours and thoughts are _worthy_ of our ongoing respect, and which aren’t? Do you, by way of example, consider female genital mutilation to be a practice worthy of our respect and reverence? Many cultures practice it. What would you think of Incan child sacrifice, if it still continued today? We are all entitled to form our own opinions on these beliefs and act accordingly with regard to how esteemed (or not) we choose to hold them. Not that this situation is remotely comparable to the former examples, but they are easy extremes to help highlight how automatic reverence to specific cultural sensitivities is not necessarily a positive thing in all instances. I agree that it certainly doesn’t hurt anyone in this case, so why not be generally respectful? But I wouldn’t tar those who disagree with me to such an adverse degree as you’re willing to. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/57 "2014-07-25T14:47:26Z")
It sounds from the article that the first time many tourists (especially foreign tourists) hear about the “Please don’t climb” request is when they arrive at Uluru. I’d be pissed as shit if I paid an extra $1k to add Uluru to my Australian vacation, planning on a climb, and only when I arrived found out climbing it would be offensive to the owners. You’d think if they really didn’t want people to climb it, they’d make sure tourists find out about their request when they make reservations to visit. Cynically I’d say they’re happy to keep getting the cash from tourists, and don’t want to scare them off. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/58 "2014-07-25T15:53:15Z")
To be fair, you could make the claim that it is up to visitors to educate themselves about the places they visit before they get there, if for no other reason than it’ll make their trip more interesting and enjoyable if they first understand what they’re seeing. 🙂 Also, I may be wrong, but I imagine the majority of people are going are there to experience a sunrise / sunset over Uluru rather than to climb; that is an optional add-on trek that, I gather, less and less people are now undertaking. Simply being there would be enough, I reckon. (And I doubt the tourist numbers will start dwindling any time soon). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/59 "2014-07-25T16:06:10Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > To be fair, you could make the claim that it is up to visitors to educate themselves about the places they visit before they get there, if for no other reason than it’ll make their trip more interesting and enjoyable if they first understand what they’re seeing. 🙂 Sure, but I have no idea how much research you have to do to find out that that some people are requesting you not climb. > [@](#): > > Also, I may be wrong, but I imagine the majority of people are going are there to experience a sunrise / sunset over Uluru rather than to climb; that is an optional add-on trek that, I gather, less and less people are now undertaking. Simply being there would be enough, I reckon. (And I doubt the tourist numbers will start dwindling any time soon). But the people who weren’t going to climb it anyway are meaningless as part of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/60 "2014-07-25T20:39:32Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > . . . You only respect local people’s beliefs _if there’s a roof?_ . . . Selective quotation is a childish form of debate. Read all of what I said, and address that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734.md?page=4)