# Aussie Dopers (and other travellers) – Have you / would you climb Uluru? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734 "2014-07-22T13:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/121 "2014-07-27T03:35:27Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > If anyone actually climbed Uluru with that attitude, I think that would be truly offensive. > If you feel the need to challenge superstitions, please just stick to walking under ladders. > Because, y’know, that doesn’t offend anyone, or piss on anyone’s culture and sacred beliefs. > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > This is the attitude we should have when we visit any place that is sacred to a people. > And to **robert\_columbia** , why do you feel the need to mock any religion? Why is there a free pass for religion? It’s not like race, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender identity, or disability. It’s a choice. I don’t have to respect your taste in music, painting, or anything else. Why should I have to respect anyone’s superstitions? We are all born as atheists, but usually our parents start telling us lies. Nobody has the right not to be offended. If there’s an ecological reason to stay off of the rock in question, then people should stay off. If it’s because it offends someone, for some completely illogical, irrational, superstitious reason, then I’m tempted to get on it. The terrible treatment of the aboriginals doesn’t mean that they should be held to a lower standard regarding logic, reason, science, and rational thinking. I’m tired of the attitude that religions held mostly by people of color, or people who have been victimized, are not fair game. I personally think that Temple Mount should be bulldozed, or otherwise demolished, and replaced with something more useful. I realize that Maoists killed a lot of people like me, among others, but I get a dirty little thrill [out of this clip.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkPTdz0WeA) You can stop after the plane takes off, as the generals leave. Religion is poison, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/122 "2014-07-27T03:41:06Z")
Bless. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/123 "2014-07-27T04:01:59Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I don’t have to respect your taste in music, painting, or anything else. Why should I have to respect anyone’s superstitions? My taste in music is not an important cultural identification. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I’m tired of the attitude that religions held mostly by people of color, or people who have been victimized, are not fair game. Fair game!? What are you hunting for? > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > The terrible treatment of the aboriginals doesn’t mean that they should be held to a lower standard regarding logic, reason, science, and rational thinking. So trampling on their beliefs and culture is just your way of showing them that you respect them as logical, reasonable, rational people? Okeydokey. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I personally think that Temple Mount should be bulldozed, or otherwise demolished, and replaced with something more useful. I realize that Maoists killed a lot of people like me, among others, but I get a dirty little thrill [out of this clip.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkPTdz0WeA) You can stop after the plane takes off, as the generals leave. > > Religion is poison, indeed. Interesting group you’ve chosen to identify with right there. Religion isn’t the only poison in this world. Looks like you’re drinking deeply from your own cup. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/124 "2014-07-27T04:33:46Z")
I probably wouldn’t climb the rock but I don’t think it’s quite fair to demonize people who would question it. It is entirely a personal decision where one chooses to draw the line about respecting other customs (maybe staying off the rock is OK, but faith healing or making women walk five paces behind men is a different story.) It can be rude, but not necessarily malicious. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/125 "2014-07-27T04:43:14Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > My taste in music is not an important cultural identification. I was a bit taken aback when I read this. Taste in music is a very important cultural identifier! Mods vs. rockers, jocks vs. skaters, and so on all have music as key ways of signifying one’s allegiance. If you discover someone’s music taste to be abysmal, does it not change your estimation of said person? > [@](#): > > Fair game!? What are you hunting for? Superstition, backwardness, and so on. > [@](#): > > So trampling on their beliefs and culture is just your way of showing them that you respect them as logical, reasonable, rational people? > Okeydokey. No, it’s showing that I expect them to be logical, reasonable, and rational. It’s like the story of St. Boniface and the sacred oak tree, taken one step further. Allegedly, Boniface knocked down (with wind assistance) this tree that was sacred to the pagans. Nothing bad happened, i.e. there was no divine vengeance, so the pagans converted to Xianity. The point is, however, that their reasons for disbelieving in their gods could also be applied to Boniface’s god! > [@](#): > > Interesting group you’ve chosen to identify with right there. > > Religion isn’t the only poison in this world. > Looks like you’re drinking deeply from your own cup. I don’t identify with them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/126 "2014-07-27T05:31:52Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Why is there a free pass for religion? It’s not like race, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender identity, or disability. It’s a choice. I don’t have to respect your taste in music, painting, or anything else. Why should I have to respect anyone’s superstitions? We are all born as atheists, but usually our parents start telling us lies. Grin! I’m happy to meet someone who takes an opinion too far in the other direction! Religion (when not too theocratic) should be respected, in the way we respect nationalities, languages, cultures, and moral values. I’m willing to give religion “a free pass” because it is central to so much of human nature. Like fire, it’s a decent servant, although a really bad master. > [@](#): > > Nobody has the right not to be offended. If there’s an ecological reason to stay off of the rock in question, then people should stay off. If it’s because it offends someone, for some completely illogical, irrational, superstitious reason, then I’m tempted to get on it. The terrible treatment of the aboriginals doesn’t mean that they should be held to a lower standard regarding logic, reason, science, and rational thinking. I’m tired of the attitude that religions held mostly by people of color, or people who have been victimized, are not fair game. I think it’s our duty, as humanists, to avoid giving offense any time it is avoidable. I’ve conceded from the first that anyone who climbs the rock, knowing what we know now, is a jerk. It’s bad to be a jerk, and we should, to at least some degree, try to avoid being jerks. But you’re right: we can’t avoid giving some offense in this world. I’ve actually met people who are offended by my surname. (Vaguely analogous to Arnold Schwarzanegger, where the last two syllables can sound a little unpleasant to some segments of our society.) Members of PETA are offended when I eat a hamburger. I am willing to eat it quietly, without making a big in-your-face production of it – but I am damn well going to eat it. That said… > [@](#): > > I personally think that Temple Mount should be bulldozed, or otherwise demolished, and replaced with something more useful. . . . Nah… Too “Taliban.” Too “ISIS.” If nothing else, religious architecture is a thing of great beauty. Same with religious music. J.S. Bach may have been wasting his time in glorifying a God that doesn’t exist…but he did it with some magnificent creative beauty, I can’t really feel it was a loss. Burning manuscripts is not the practice of open-minded, tolerant humanists. There needs to be a moderate, middle position. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/127 "2014-07-27T05:34:48Z")
Serious question: does Australian/Commonwealth fundamental constitutional legal philosophy have a doctrine of “If it’s not forbidden, it is permitted?” Does Australia have something like the U.S. Tenth Amendment? Can someone speak to this foundational legal philosophy here? ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/128 "2014-07-27T05:59:34Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > > > My taste in music is not an important cultural identification. > > I was a bit taken aback when I read this. Taste in music is a very important cultural identifier! Mods vs. rockers, jocks vs. skaters, and so on all have music as key ways of signifying one’s allegiance. If you discover someone’s music taste to be abysmal, does it not change your estimation of said person? You were a little taken aback!? That is a good sign. Sure music can be an important cultural identifier for many people, and I’m glad you recognize that. Which is why I said _my_ taste in music is not such (to me), since you brought up music as an example of not needing to respect other people’s “tastes”. I really don’t think equating cultural identity and religion with _tastes_ is a reasonable way to approach the argument, and like I said up-thread, I don’t think analogies are necessary to address the topic of the OP. But since you’ve chosen this one, would you feel the need to tell someone to their face “you’re taste in music sucks and I think you’re stupid for liking that crap”? > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > > > Fair game!? What are you hunting for? > > Superstition, backwardness, and so on. If you think you’re hunting superstition and backwardness, well then happy hunting. But I suggest you look carefully at your targets before pulling the trigger. Maybe read a couple of game books first. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > > > So trampling on their beliefs and culture is just your way of showing them that you respect them as logical, reasonable, rational people? > > Okeydokey. > > No, it’s showing that I expect them to be logical, reasonable, and rational. It’s like the story of St. Boniface and the sacred oak tree, taken one step further. Allegedly, Boniface knocked down (with wind assistance) this tree that was sacred to the pagans. Nothing bad happened, i.e. there was no divine vengeance, so the pagans converted to Xianity. The point is, however, that their reasons for disbelieving in their gods could also be applied to Boniface’s god! St. Boniface and the sacred oak? Didn’t know about that until now, so thanks for that. (And boy, what an arsehole _he_ was!) But do you think the Anangu will suddenly cast off all their beliefs and follow you into the light just because you step all over their sacred rock without being smitten by an angry god? No, of course you don’t. What a silly thing for me to suggest. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > > > Interesting group you’ve chosen to identify with right there. > > > > Religion isn’t the only poison in this world. > > Looks like you’re drinking deeply from your own cup. > > I don’t identify with them. As for who you identify with in the movie _Seven Years in Tibet_, well, you made it clear that it ain’t Brad Pitt. You said you get “a dirty little thrill” out of seeing the Maoist general desecrating Tibetan religious symbolism, and seem to approve his words about religion being poison. On the other hand, may I ask what you mean when you say “I realize that Maoists killed a lot of people **like me** ”? (Honestly no snark intended with this question. Just curious.) ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/129 "2014-07-27T07:47:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Serious question: does Australian/Commonwealth fundamental constitutional legal philosophy have a doctrine of “If it’s not forbidden, it is permitted?” Does Australia have something like the U.S. Tenth Amendment? > > Can someone speak to this foundational legal philosophy here? The attitude is very much there even if the legal precedent isn’t (I couldn’t say off-hand). I’d note though that if the Commonwealth just up and banned climbing Uluru I suspect the same people complaining about climbers would also bitch about the government doing that and taking the decision out of the hands of the traditional owners. :rolleyes: Personally I think the owners and the NT Parks people should just sit down in a closed session and fucking well work it out once and for all and then stick with the decision (either way) and tell anyone who doesn’t like it to piss-off. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/130 "2014-07-27T09:15:47Z")
I had the sherpas carry me up. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/131 "2014-07-27T16:44:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Grin! I’m happy to meet someone who takes an opinion too far in the other direction! That is false equivalency. > [@](#): > > Religion (when not too theocratic) should be respected, in the way we respect nationalities, languages, cultures, and moral values. I’m willing to give religion “a free pass” because it is central to so much of human nature. Like fire, it’s a decent servant, although a really bad master. Among other things, religions make claims regarding history, science, morality, and so on. Can you see what is wrong with deciding that all of these claims are equally valid, and exist on a par with empirical evidence? Moral values and cultures are also not all equally valid. It’s this kind of weak relativism that leads to making endless excuses for all kinds of backward, oppressive behavior, opening a space for more misogyny, homophobia, sexual repression, and so on. We’re seeing this with Muslims in the West, though no, they aren’t going to “take over.” > [@](#): > > I think it’s our duty, as humanists, to avoid giving offense any time it is avoidable. I’ve conceded from the first that anyone who climbs the rock, knowing what we know now, is a jerk. It’s bad to be a jerk, and we should, to at least some degree, try to avoid being jerks. Often, offense is exactly what’s required to demonstrate the powerlessness and pointlessness of taboos. I can’t get to it right now, but there’s great video of an atheist conference in Australia, which a group of angry Muslim men protested. The atheists’ response is priceless: chants of “Where are the women?!?” and same-sex couples making out. Similar make-out blocs have been directed at homophobic Christians in the US and France. When the Hasidim in Brooklyn were complaining about scantily-clad (they said) cyclists moving through “their” neighborhoods, plans emerged for a mob of such cyclists to ride around in defiance, but the weather did not cooperate. > [@](#): > > Nah… Too “Taliban.” Too “ISIS.” If nothing else, religious architecture is a thing of great beauty. Same with religious music. J.S. Bach may have been wasting his time in glorifying a God that doesn’t exist…but he did it with some magnificent creative beauty, I can’t really feel it was a loss. Burning manuscripts is not the practice of open-minded, tolerant humanists. > > There needs to be a moderate, middle position. I specified Temple Mount because there’s so much (pointless) conflict over it. Just destroy it. I’m not an open-minded, tolerant humanist, because that’s a great way to let those with the courage of their convictions walk all over you and establish a theocracy, but there’s no need to burn manuscripts or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/132 "2014-07-27T17:08:24Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > I really don’t think equating cultural identity and religion with _tastes_ is a reasonable way to approach the argument, and like I said up-thread, I don’t think analogies are necessary to address the topic of the OP. But since you’ve chosen this one, would you feel the need to tell someone to their face “you’re taste in music sucks and I think you’re stupid for liking that crap”? I wouldn’t put it that way, and it would really depend on the music in question, and the general context of the situation. I see religion the same way. > [@](#): > > But do you think the Anangu will suddenly cast off all their beliefs and follow you into the light just because you step all over their sacred rock without being smitten by an angry god? > No, of course you don’t. What a silly thing for me to suggest. Not necessarily, but it’s the principle of the thing. > [@](#): > > You said you get “a dirty little thrill” out of seeing the Maoist general desecrating Tibetan religious symbolism, and seem to approve his words about religion being poison. > > On the other hand, may I ask what you mean when you say “I realize that Maoists killed a lot of people **like me** ”? (Honestly no snark intended with this question. Just curious.) I do, but I don’t endorse most of the rest of their stances. “People like me” would refer to advocates of a far more (or completely) decentralized regime. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/133 "2014-07-27T21:22:29Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Why is there a free pass for religion? It’s not like race, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender identity, or disability. It’s a choice. I don’t have to respect your taste in music, painting, or anything else. Why should I have to respect anyone’s superstitions? We are all born as atheists, but usually our parents start telling us lies. [I’m starting to see why you don’t get invited to a whole lot of weddings.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=728945) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/134 "2014-07-27T21:45:52Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > That is false equivalency. Agreed. But from a “political” standpoint, it helps me, because I can claim to a position of moderation, using your position as a contrast. I didn’t say it wasn’t fallacious, just convenient. “Don’t yell at me for spray-painting obscenities on the wall; this guy threw a grenade!” I started a lengthy response on the subject of religion in general, but, really, this isn’t the right thread for it. This is “Uluru, Climb it or Not?” and not “Religion, Good or Bad?” If I meet you in one of the latter-themed threads, lay on! ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/135 "2014-07-27T22:37:07Z")
I’m no fan of religion myself, but I wouldn’t walk into a church to rant about it. It seems disrespectful to enter someone else’s space to complain about their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/136 "2014-07-27T23:04:08Z")
I didn’t climb when I was there, simply because our bus driver said that although we had the choice, he’d really prefer that we didn’t. I didn’t really give a shit either way, I suspected that once on top all I would see was bloody desert anyway so I didn’t feel like I was missing out, and so I didn’t bother going up. The spiritual/holy ground thing didn’t affect my thinking in the slightest, couldn’t have cared less about that. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/137 "2014-07-28T00:21:20Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I’m not an open-minded, tolerant humanist, because that’s a great way to let those with the courage of their convictions walk all over you and establish a theocracy. . . No. Weakness in the face of tyranny, oppression or injustice is how you let people walk all over you. Open-mindedness, tolerance and humanism help to foster mutual understanding and appreciation between people. They help to build bridges and heal wounds. I would rather the world had more people who are open-minded, tolerant humanists than people who are closed-minded, intolerant . . . _inhumanists?_ And since the topic of the thread is _Uluru: climb or not_, and you have your climbing boots on, who’s walking all over whom? > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > . . . it’s the principle of the thing. Being principled is good, but as you have rightly suggested, the wrong principles can cause grief for other people. Would you say you have _courage of conviction_ in your principles? > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > “People like me” would refer to advocates of a far more (or completely) decentralized regime. M’kay. I just wondered if maybe you had some kind of cultural identity I should be aware of. Thanks for answering. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734/138 "2014-07-28T01:57:05Z")
Whilst the traditional owners would prefer to see the outright banning of climbing Uluru they are also realists, they recognize that without tourism dollars they would have a tough time in the middle of nowhere. SO the original idea was that it would hurt tourism. Now they recognize that banning the climb would not necessarily slow down the numbers of tourists in any material way. They also understand that banning the climb would give some people the permission to start slaggin off on them about it and at heart they are not a group who want that kind of negative situation to occur. Yes the government could ban the climb but the traditional owners believe that education is better then regulation. By informing people and asking them to come to a decision they believe that people will understand their culture a little more and then hopefully respect it a little more. I have many friends who would climb it but I wouldn’t, out of respect for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aussie-dopers-and-other-travellers-have-you-would-you-climb-uluru/693734.md?page=6)