At the Petrified Forest National Park, the visitors’ center has prominent displays of the rules and regulations, clearly indicating that it’s against the rules to pick up even a sliver of petrified wood and take it away.
But they also had a really dorky “superstition” display, telling how many people believe it is bad luck to take fragments from the park. There were anecdotes and testimonials. Some people had such bad luck, they mailed their stolen fragments back.
I resented the hell out of that childishness. It doesn’t belong in an education center at a National Park. Just post the rules, and enforce them. Don’t tell me that spooky magic is gonna get me. That kind of dark ages shit has no place here.
As a representative of White People ™, I respectfully ask all tourists to refrain from taking stupid photos of Stonehenge and participating in mock-Druid rituals in the vicinity. You’re making my ancestors cry. I’m so seriously.
I climbed it as a child. I wouldn’t today. It’s not about respect for spiritual beliefs though. The reason the traditional owners don’t want me to climb it is to do with belief. The reason I should respect their wishes is that it’s their bloody rock. They aren’t obliged to give me any reason, let alone a rational one.
Pretty much anyone living in Australian cities at the moment owes their lifestyle to privilige of citizenship. Sure, different people have worked different amounts to get different amounts that may or may not correlate with the amount they’ve worked, but everyone has a massive boost from living in a rich country, where the wealth comes mainly from possessing land.
Meanwhile, the remnants of the 300 odd nations that got wiped out to give us that ownership would like us, please, to recognise their property rights over the small amount that didn’t get completely taken off them. This isn’t a “who originally owned Palestine” type situation. It’s people who within living memory were kicked off their property and are still living nearby when we have the courage to look.
When they say “get off my lawn” I get off their lawn. I don’t quibble with their belief in grass spirits.
I climbed it a long time ago, before I knew not to. It was cool, not so much the view, but the landscape on the top of the rock itself. I wouldn’t climb it now, pretty much for the reasons Dioptre said.
Many thanks for all the replies. I’m still a bit undecided on the issue, but an veering towards the ‘not climbing’ side, but mostly only because it doesn’t seem to be a particularly interesting climb. And if that carries the additional bonus of being less controversial, then that’s probably easier all round too.
On a closely related but side issue - although less publicised, I believe there is a similar desire from certain aborigonal cultures to see the Devil’s Marbles (known as Karlukarlu) at Tennant Creek left untouched by visitors, as they are seen as the fossilised eggs of the Rainbow Serpent, their creator God. Would any who respected the local community wishes at Uluru be willing to extend the same courtesy at this site? Thanks.
What do they mean by “untouched”? Don’t climb them, push them over, deface them or change their appearance in any way? Sure, I’d fully support those wishes and would abide by them. But if they mean cutting off all access to visitors, then no, I think that’s over the top.
From what I’ve read, the latter isn’t what they are talking about. The traditional owners (who are the official owners since 2008) lease the land to the Territory Government for the purpose of providing public access. Are there certain aboriginal individuals who want all access cut off?
To be honest, I’m not really sure. It’s something I read somewhere, and I was simply curious if the, shall we say, ‘legitimacy’ of the reason for the request not to touch something affected people’s willingness to comply with it. I read that many local would prefer that the stones not be touched, in a similar fashion to how they prefer Uluru not to be climbed. But I could be wrong - hey, I read it on the Interwebs!
Like some posters above, if someone simply said “Don’t go there…”, I’d be happy to comply. If they say “It’s up to you, but I wouldn’t go as the boogyman will get you…” then I’ll happily ignore them. The situations are similar here, but the latter just sounds more, well, silly that the former, so personal perception of the reason given not to do something seems pertinent.
I hiked to the top when I was there and don’t feel guilty at all. I had the summit to myself right after sunrise. Seeing that massive shadow stretching out almost to the horizon was magical, one of the highlights of my trip. I understand it has cultural significance, but if they don’t want people up there then get rid of the parking lot and don’t just post advisories to discourage hikers–just prohibit it, period.
I think Dioptre said it well - you don’t have to respect their traditions or superstition in order to respect them and their wishes. I don’t believe in and have no use for Catholic superstitions, but I’m not going to visit a Catholic church and use the holy water as my urinal. Uluru is their land and they would prefer you don’t walk on it. If you want to ignore their wishes, it is up to you, but don’t pretend it’s all fine because you don’t believe in their superstitions.
That said, I agree with everyone who is turned off by the over-the-top stuff trying to convince my why I should believe in their superstitions or that I’ll have bad luck or whatever. I understand the intention–too many people ignore others’ desires unless there’s something in it for them–but it seems to (rightly) piss people off more than convince them.
If they didn’t want you to go up, they could close it. They have complete control.
If they didn’t want to climb it themselves, how come they climb it to guard it, keep it clean and safe and maintained ?
I believe its a “air of mystique” thing… their words act like proof its a magical place… just a basic confidence trick… they say they feel bad about you climbing it, this then acts like proof there is some mystique or risk in climbing it. Its as true as the King Tut’s curse thing.
The question of climbing does not require you to accept and take on Aboriginal superstition and spiritual beliefs. Its a simple matter of respect. Respect for a culture, for the Aboriginal people, and for their beliefs.
They don’t want you to climb, so the decent decision is to abide by their wishes.
Besides the close Olgas are even more interesting and climbable.
That people piss and shit on the rock during this idiotic climb has not been mentioned. This alone has ruined the pristine billabong nestled at its base; once the most pure water on earth.
Peter Severin, of Curtain Springs station put the chain up in the late 50’s in order to create an outback tourist industry that didn’t exist at that time - and nor did Aboriginal rights. He’s a racist prick, and in the 70’s when my (white) father was stranded at his station for more than a month waiting for truck parts. My great uncle (black) who was with him, wasn’t allowed on the property so Dad too, camped off-site, refusing Severin’s offer of a rifle “…for shootin’ those fuckin’ black bastards.”
I too, broke down out there in 2007. Severin was still there. He no longer referred to natives as “fuckin’ black bastards” - they were just “filthy black cunts” instead.
So for those who don’t adhere to the spiritual beliefs, just keep in mind that everyone who climbs the rock keeps the whitewashed legend of this scumbag alive.
There’s an awful lot of entitlement going on in this thread: would you take the same YOU’RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME attitude if someone asked you to take off your hat in Westminster Abbey?
eta: Wow. Yeah, they’re just making up the whole “culturally important” bit to scam tourists.
[QUOTE=Isilder]
If they didn’t want to climb it themselves, how come they climb it to guard it, keep it clean and safe and maintained ?
I believe its a “air of mystique” thing… their words act like proof its a magical place… just a basic confidence trick… they say they feel bad about you climbing it, this then acts like proof there is some mystique or risk in climbing it. Its as true as the King Tut’s curse thing.
[/QUOTE]
My thoughts. (I suspect it’s not a very exciting climb to start with - as many have pointed out).
Just because some people think a natural object is sacred doesn’t mean I have to respect that view. If I want to climb, I will. I won’t force anybody to climb it, and I wont ridicule anybody who wants to respect someone else’s idea of ‘sacred’-ness.
If they had built it themselves - hey, your church, your rules. I follow that when visiting other holy sites. But they didn’t build the rock. It was there long before the Aboriginals.
Sidetrack and highjack, but, no way. It’s open to the air. Birds poop in it. The purest water on earth would be in deep caverns, in cavities fed only from microfissures where even bats and blind fish can’t poop in it.
No…but if I were visiting the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington D.C., and someone told me I had to take off my hat, I’d have similar objections.
One is very clearly property under the control of the property owners; the other isn’t. It’s outdoors and open to everyone.
If Uluru is made the private property of the tribes, or made into a national park, and the rules are formalized by regulatory process, that’s one thing. But “Please don’t,” while deserving of respect, doesn’t have the force of law that a formal park regulation does.
I agree with blondebear: “Just prohibit it, period.”
You won’t get too far appealing to everyone’s better nature, because not everyone has one.
It makes me think of events that ask for a “voluntary donation” instead of an actual admittance fee.
I feel impelled to point out that the recent thread about what would you do if you were transported back to the 1950s was hypothetical only. Seriously, it doesn’t count if the request is outdoors? You only respect local people’s beliefs if there’s a roof? As somebody most reasonably commented recently, the reasonable position is to respect their beliefs not because they’re yours, but because they’re theirs.
If I’m in Japan I don’t stick my chopsticks upright in the rice bowl not because I believe in Japanese ghosts, but because it’s the local custom and I’m not an arrogant boor. And yeah, there was always one guy who always did it just because “you can’t tell me what to do”. He was a classless dickhead.
No, they don’t. The land is leased to Parks Australia (i.e. the Australian government) and jointly managed.
They don’t climb it to clean it, guard it, or for any other reason. Their law/culture forbids climbing it.
It’s just a big rock in the middle of the desert. The only reason it would need any ‘maintaining’ is because of tourists climbing it, causing erosion and sanitation issues and occasionally dying of heart attacks.
No.
On preview: Trinopus, the Rock is on traditionally owned land, but leased to the National Parks. You have to pay an entrance fee to get in. The Australian government does not want to ban the climb.
Of course the landowners’ requests don’t have the force of law. They are very well aware of that. Their land was taken, their people were murdered, their children were kidnapped - as if the government is going to start defending their religion all of a sudden. Aboriginal Australians are not in a position to tell anyone what to do. They just would really rather people didn’t climb on the Rock. Anyone can easily tell them to go fuck themselves, it’s not going to be a new experience for them.