# Austerity: Is it working? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759 "2015-09-27T20:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/41 "2015-09-30T16:27:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Ever taken a counterfeit medicine? Has a glass of milk contaminated with melamine? I have. > > I’ll keep my bureaucracy, thank you. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/42 "2015-09-30T16:31:05Z")
Then again, I could set up a company and sell ITR champion some carcinogenic chewing gum, and when he gets mouth cancer… haha, up yours, thanks for the money and forget about sueing me with your non-existent bureacracy. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/43 "2015-10-01T13:53:38Z")
What I think this thread needs is a little [honesty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaugqbnGcRQ), and for that, we turn to Mr. Billy Joel: \*Aus-ter-ity, is such a misued word Everyone is so confused Aus-ter-ity it never really works But when sometimes, it does I can always find some projects to throw the money at I’ll take the clunkers off the road Tho at too too long a pace The debt and deficits will rise I just don’t know what to believe\* (if you half-close your ears & sing as badly as I do, it sorta almost kinda works) Mr. Gerry Rafferty chimes in with his advice: _You need direction, yeah you need a name When you’re standing in the crossroads every highway looks the same After a while you can recognize the signs So if you get it wrong you’ll [get it right next time](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGlAhw9oSIg) (next time)._ ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/44 "2015-10-01T14:36:41Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > France Italy and Greece are less market oriented ? No way. I’ve been in Italian supermarkets and there is peeerrrrlenty of choice. Here’s what you said: “the more market oriented your economy, the more bureacracy you need to administer all the competing consumer options. Hence higher taxes.” According to the [Index of Economic Freedom](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking), Australia, New Zealand, And Switzerland are among the five most free and market-oriented countries. The least free are North Korea, Cuba, and Venezuela. So according to you, North Korea, Cuba, and Venezuela must have the least bureaucracy and lowest taxes, while Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland have the most bureaucracy and highest taxes. Of course you’re wrong. The countries that are least market-oriented have the most bureaucracy and highest taxes. The countries that are most market-oriented have the least bureaucracy and lowest taxes. That’s what it means to be market-oriented: people can make their own economic decisions with less interference from bureaucrats, tax collectors, and other government thugs. Italy is ranked #80 on the Index of Economic Freedom . France is #73, and Greece is #130. They are more free than North Korea but less free than Switzerland. The Italian supermarkets that you shopped in have to put up with plenty of meddling, bureaucratic rules and high taxes, though you may not have been aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/45 "2015-10-01T16:30:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > …and other government thugs… Yeah! Like that beady-eyed harridan at the library, bugging me! Look, lady, its a long damn book about a whale and some guy who wants to be called “Fishmeal” or some damn thing! My lips get tired, its gonna be a while! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/46 "2015-10-01T17:19:46Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No, wait. Switzerland, New Zealand, and Australia have much _[lower](http://taxfoundation.org/article/2014-international-tax-competitiveness-index)_ taxes than France, Italy, and Greece. Which is why your claim that more market-oriented countries have higher taxes is utterly ludicrous. > > Let me explain something. We don’t _need_ bureaucracy. We have it, but we could get rid of the enormous majority of it without hurting anybody other than the bureaucrats, who would have to find useful jobs. The United States economy functioned quite well from its founding until the early 20th century with only a tiny fraction of the bureaucracy that it has today. There are plenty of industries that still do so. Software, for example. Software still has a free market for the most part. There’s no federal or state Department of Software that has to approve pieces of software. As a result, the USA has thousands of software companies producing innovative, useful products. Compare that to a heavily regulated industry such as freight trains or pharmaceuticals. Bureaucracy leads to fewer companies, less competition, and less innovation. Guess what? Your libertarian paradise of Australia [regulates software.](https://www.tga.gov.au/regulation-medical-software-and-mobile-medical-apps) Regulations are for things that can harm the public that it is difficult or impossible for them to evaluate. Like software going into medical devices. I didn’t bother to look since coming up with Australian regulations for software was so much fun, but I’m sure US medical device software is regulated also. I( propose we establish libertarian stores with products that are totally unregulated. Half the libertarian population would get wiped out in a year. Or, you can go to China and buy some unregulated toothpaste. The point was that market economies with lots of products need more regulators to test all these products. If you have evidence that “freer” economies by your definition have more products available, please show it. I’ve been to groceries in Denmark, Sweden and Finland, and there was tons of choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/47 "2015-10-01T21:57:52Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Governments in Europe and North America still run enormous budget deficits. How is that austerity? Canada posted a budget surplus last year. Last I checked, we haven’t devolved into a right-wing dystopia. Our big financial problem now has to do with the collapse in resource prices. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/48 "2015-10-01T23:54:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Canada posted a budget surplus last year. Last I checked, we haven’t devolved into a right-wing dystopia. On the other hand, when the US last ran a surplus, it did devolve into a right-wing dystopia. In 2000. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/49 "2015-10-02T00:52:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Bureaucracy leads to fewer companies, less competition, and less innovation. No, monopolization and cartelization lead to that – and can’t be stopped save by bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/50 "2015-10-02T02:09:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, monopolization and cartelization lead to that – and can’t be stopped save by bureaucracy. Granted, monopolization and cartelization can also be created or defended by bureaucracy . . . but, what will you? Police forces can be corrupt and oppressive and even criminal, but nothing else can effectively fight crime. It’s not a question of whether we need such agencies, it’s a question of who will control them and what kind of people will serve in them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/51 "2015-10-02T02:58:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Guess what? Your libertarian paradise of Australia [regulates software.](https://www.tga.gov.au/regulation-medical-software-and-mobile-medical-apps) Actually the link that you posted is to a government agency in Australia that regulates only software in medical devices, not software generally. You didn’t honestly think you’d fool anyone with that, did you? > [@](#): > > Regulations are for things that can harm the public that it is difficult or impossible for them to evaluate. Really? Then why does the government impose costly regulations on [dishwashers](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2015/03/23/department-of-energy-dishwasher-regulations-will-soak-consumers), [toilets](http://lionsofliberty.com/2012/11/29/why-have-we-allowed-the-government-to-regulate-commodes/), [refrigerators](http://thehill.com/regulation/energy-environment/199583-doe-rolls-out-new-standards-for-commercial-refrigerators), [flower arranging](http://ij.org/case/chauvin-v-strain/), and [hair braiding](http://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/)? I’m not sure how these things can harm the public, much less why it’s difficult for the public to evaluate their potential harm. I’m not even sure exactly how anyone could be harmed by a dishwasher, toilet, or bouquet of flowers. Perhaps if the toilet fell out of the sky and hit somebody? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/52 "2015-10-02T06:43:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Actually the link that you posted is to a government agency in Australia that regulates only software in medical devices, not software generally. > > You didn’t honestly think you’d fool anyone with that, did you? So, you agree that regulating this software is a good idea? Then, as the joke goes, it is just a matter of negotiation. > [@](#): > > Really? Then why does the government impose costly regulations on [dishwashers](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2015/03/23/department-of-energy-dishwasher-regulations-will-soak-consumers), [toilets](http://lionsofliberty.com/2012/11/29/why-have-we-allowed-the-government-to-regulate-commodes/), [refrigerators](http://thehill.com/regulation/energy-environment/199583-doe-rolls-out-new-standards-for-commercial-refrigerators), [flower arranging](http://ij.org/case/chauvin-v-strain/), and [hair braiding](http://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/)? I’m not sure how these things can harm the public, much less why it’s difficult for the public to evaluate their potential harm. I’m not even sure exactly how anyone could be harmed by a dishwasher, toilet, or bouquet of flowers. Perhaps if the toilet fell out of the sky and hit somebody? I never said all regulations are good. You seem to be saying that all regulations arre bad. I don’t know about the new dishwasher ones, but I just bought a new dishwasher and it is a lot more water and energy efficient than my old one. Maybe the old regulations helped that. You should have added manicure salons as something not meriting regulation - but the Times found that manicurists were being harmed by the stuff they used thanks to lack of regulation and poor enforcement. If you hate regulation you should try China. No one enforces anything - until someone gets poisoned by a company whose boss isn’t related to someone with power. Then the execute the culprit. But they still taint products, which pretty much knocks off the argument that we don’t need regulation because no one will be stupid enough to do something they could be put in jail for. You claim with no evidence that government stifles competition and business creation. But we have more now, and we have more companies and if we have less competition in some areas it is big companies swallowing smaller ones. Something government certainly does not encourage and sometimes prevents. I work in Silicon Valley. We have lots of government and tons of competition. BTW the dishwasher thing is a proposal, not a regulation. I see mostly complaints by appliance companies. I didn’t look hard enough for the other side. If it is a bad regulation, it should not be adopted. Simple enough. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759/53 "2015-10-04T03:04:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What establishment pundits bill as “austerity” is higher government spending and higher taxes. No it isn’t working. Lowering government spending and lowering taxes will work. Right, then. Do you also want population decrease, or just deflation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austerity-is-it-working/732759.md?page=2)