# Austin Texas, Proposition B **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 25, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755 "2021-04-25T21:52:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/143 "2021-05-10T14:26:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Perhaps providing them with their own place to live with access to alcohol when they want it would provide them with the stability to get their lives together. Although it could happen, I would think the vast majority of people would continue their addiction if there is no downside. Often addicts have come from homes with loving families who had done everything they could to help the addict quit. But eventually the families can’t take the destructive influence of the addict and they kick them out. If an addict is given a comfortable place to live and full freedom to pursue their addiction, they will likely continue their addiction until they die. That’s often the case in ‘wet houses’, where alcoholics are given a place to live and drink like this one: > **[At St. Paul ‘wet house,’ liquor can be their life — and death](https://www.twincities.com/2010/12/04/at-st-paul-wet-house-liquor-can-be-their-life-and-death/)** > > Marion Hagerman appreciates your concern. But it’s OK to give up on him, he says. Everyone else has — which might be the only sensible thing to do. Hagerman has been drinking for 39 yea… > [@](#): > > There are no counselors, no scolding, no 12-step programs, no group hugs. Just the love of Hagerman’s life, waiting for him every day — alcohol. In a way, it’s like hospice care for the addict. This is providing a more dignified way for the alcoholic to live, but it’s not very likely that they will get their lives together and be able to return to normal society. Most likely, they will live there until their addiction gets the best of them. Places like this should be the last option since the person will likely be there until they die. Not everyone will be so helpless. Some people will turn their life around, but only if they are faced with strong negative consequences of their behavior. But without any resistance, the addict will often just spiral down and stay there. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/144 "2021-05-10T14:36:50Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > But they won’t accomplish that with just giving them some place to flop with no cooperation on their part to fight addiction and mental illness. And it hampers the potential success of others who are trying to stay clean, trying to learn life skills, and trying to get into the 9 to 5 routine. I understand the sentiment that we want to help people and it is better for them to shoot up or piss all over the floor inside instead of out in the cold, but you are right. Without any rules, the inmates will run the asylum and you destroy any chance of helping those who want the help. At some point there has to be a rule violation so severe that you can eject someone. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/145 "2021-05-10T17:22:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Addicts are by and large incapable of _not_ being asses. I don’t have a problem (and I think that most would agree) with rules that kicked out true trouble makers. I just think that requiring sobriety as a condition of assistance for housing does not accomplish what people think it will. If someone is not ready to get sober then they will either not agree to the condition and therefore not take assistance. Or they will try to comply and fail. Either way they’re back on the street, so what is accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/146 "2021-05-10T18:08:38Z")
Hasn’t this gotten a little silly? Are there really homeless people living in tents or on the street who just enjoy a causal glass of wine with dinner?? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/147 "2021-05-10T20:46:34Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I don’t have a problem (and I think that most would agree) with rules that kicked out true trouble makers. I just think that requiring sobriety as a condition of assistance for housing does not accomplish what people think it will. > [@dalej42](#): > > Hasn’t this gotten a little silly? Are there really homeless people living in tents or on the street who just enjoy a causal glass of wine with dinner?? Indeed. The rule about no booze in the shelters is not some nanny state busy body neo-temperance regulation designed just to screw with a homeless guy who wants to crush a few beers, catch a documentary on the History Channel, and drift off to sleep. They are largely on the streets because of their problems with substance abuse _including_ alcohol. They can’t take any steps towards correcting the problem if you allow them to continue their harmful behavior in the shelter. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/148 "2021-05-11T20:26:04Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Do you place any burden at all upon the homeless themselves? I agree that life handed many a bad hand, and nobody volunteers for mental illness. But for many more there were lifestyles and decisions that put them where they are. There was a downward slope that they caused. Many of them didn’t just wake up one day homeless. there was a path to it. I thought you could use some hard statistics–always better and more convincing than assumptions and suppositions: • About 40% of the 580,000 homeless are unsheltered: living in abandoned buildings, tents, etc. • The main causes of homelessness are, in descending order: lack of affordable housing, mental illness, substance abuse, very low income. • About half of all foster children become homeless when released from foster care. •About 15% are domestic violence victims. • About 11% are veterans. **Why not require mental health counseling?** 1) Many mentally ill people don’t recognize they’re mentally ill. 2) Not all mental illnesses are curable. 3) Therapy must be long-term, and most shelters are not. 4) Issues with getting, regularly taking medication. **Why are so many of the homeless unsheltered?** Safety concerns (yes, in shelters _with_ anti-drug policies); shift work (can’t arrive before curfew of 8 or 9 pm); no pets (many depend on dogs for safety on the streets and other reasons); most shelters are very short-term (overnight); a shortage of beds. Placing the burden on homeless people for their situations is often misguided and certainly doesn’t address the problem. OK, the guy shouldn’t have started using when he was 17: how does that help now? How is it gentrification or population growth the fault of the person who can no longer afford to make rent? Sources: [https://nlchp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Homeless\_Stats\_Fact\_Sheet.pdf](https://nlchp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Homeless_Stats_Fact_Sheet.pdf) [https://www.vice.com/en/article/v74y3j/this-is-why-homeless-people-dont-go-to-shelters](https://www.vice.com/en/article/v74y3j/this-is-why-homeless-people-dont-go-to-shelters) ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/149 "2021-05-11T22:46:42Z")
Austinite here. It passed. What you may not know is that there was a camping ban for about ten years in Austin. It was lifted in 2019. Immediately, the areas under the overpasses began to fill up with tents, stolen shopping carts, and huge plastic wind breaks that effectively created a tent the size of a 3 BR house. One of the biggest issues was fire. > **[Austin firefighters responded to 3 fires, 8 burning violations at homeless...](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/04/02/austin-firefighters-have-responded-3-fires-8-burning-violations-homeless-camps-24-hours/4850084001/)** > > No injuries have been reported out of the fires, Smith said, but $12,000 in damage was done to Buford Tower, a historic downtown Austin landmark. > **[Fire at homeless encampment damages bridge, causes temporary road closure](https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/austin-homeless-camp-fire-damages-i35-bridge/269-c692b192-fca8-4354-ab62-5b2cd62e94b3)** > > The Austin Fire Department said no injuries were reported. The city put in sanitizing stations, trash barrels, and porta potties. Neighbors pitched in to clean up or bring food or clothing. Especially during the freeze. But the trash, the unsanitary conditions, the fights, the fires, the destruction? It was too much. Austin has been buying hotels and turning them into homeless housing for those who are trying to get back on their feet. I support that. I don’t know what the solution is for the homeless especially those with mental illness or addictions. I know that three solid blocks of a tent city in the middle of town is not the answer. I voted for Prop B. Lifting the camping ban made things worse. We needed to put it back. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/150 "2021-05-12T01:06:49Z")
> [@BeeGee](#): > > I don’t know what the solution is for the homeless especially those with mental illness or addictions. I know that three solid blocks of a tent city in the middle of town is not the answer. I think this is important to remember. In all our discussions of what’s best for the homeless, prop B was never meant to solve (or even really address in any meaningful way) homelessness. It was about what to do about the tent cities. While, I can say that I’m sad that the prop passed, I do hope that the city of Austin doesn’t fall into “out of sight, out of mind”. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/151 "2021-05-12T01:43:58Z")
> [@BeeGee](#): > > Austin has been buying hotels and turning them into homeless housing for those who are trying to get back on their feet. I support that. With the lack of any sort of long-term planning for the homeless when they lifted the camping ban, I’m imagining that Austin will just put a sign out front of the hotel that says “Free Rooms!” and declare success. How do these sorts of homeless hotels work out in other cities? How do they deal with issues like drugs, fights, prostitution, etc? If the hotels are only for the people who are barely homeless (e.g. working but can’t afford housing), then there are still going to be a lot of homeless people who actually need housing designed to handle their difficult to solve issues. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/152 "2021-05-12T09:50:35Z")
> [@BeeGee](#): > > there was a camping ban for about ten years in Austin. It was lifted in 2019. Immediately, the areas under the overpasses began to fill up with tents, stolen shopping carts, and huge plastic…tent the size of a house serious question–Who filled up these areas so quickly? Where were they living before they moved to the bridges in Austin? Were they local residents, or did they migrate to Austin in 2019 to take advantage of the the newly revoked law? Is there any official or unofficial “census” of these specific people? where did they live , and how did they live before moving to the tent cities over the past year or two?. What social programs did they make use of , or not make use of, to survive daily life 24 months ago, as opposed to how they are surviving now, under the bridges. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/153 "2021-05-12T14:06:05Z")
There is a pretty wide range of living situations at the bottom end. Some homeless were truly living outside in alleys and wooded areas, but others were living in cars, in seedy motels, in cramped housing, in shelters, etc. In many cases, living in your own tent would be preferable to those other housing situations. And from the pictures, it looks like there was no limit on size of the improvised tents that could be setup. Multiple tarps/tents would be strung together for a very large living area. For someone who may have been living in a car or crashing on someone’s couch, being able to setup a 500 sqft living space under an overpass could be a vast improvement. Some of the pictures from Austin had tents in very desireable places like downtown walking districts, along the hike and bike trail, etc. I would imagine that kind of housing was starting to be attractive to lots of people who would rather live in a tent along the river rather than spend $1000+/mo for a cramped studio apartment. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/154 "2021-05-13T04:45:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > **Why not require mental health counseling?** 1) Many mentally ill people don’t recognize they’re mentally ill. 2) Not all mental illnesses are curable. 3) Therapy must be long-term, and most shelters are not. 4) Issues with getting, regularly taking medication. Hence the need for involuntary commitments of some people. They don’t have the faculties to understand their own illness. They generally have no support system on their own, having alienated their family and friends with their behavior and now are forcing it upon the general public, who, quite literally, have to step over the mess their lives are. Asking a severely addicted or mentally ill homeless person what kind of treatment they should have makes no more sense than asking a child what he wants for dinner. They should have no say in the matter unless they’re buying. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/155 "2021-05-13T05:37:25Z")
Speaking of buying, let’s look at how much involuntary commitment would cost Austin taxpayers. There are about [2,500 homeless people in Austin](https://www.kut.org/austin/2021-01-07/austins-annual-count-of-the-homeless-population-wont-go-ahead-this-year-because-of-covid). The mentally ill comprise roughly 20% of the homeless population, so about 500 people in Austin. The per diem rate for Texas state psych facilities [averages about $540](https://rad.hhs.texas.gov/sites/rad/files/documents/hospital-svcs/2021/2021-psych-hosp-rates.pdf), and we’re not talking fancy-schmancy places. The annual cost for all 500 would run about $99,000,000. That, of course, doesn’t count court costs, attorney fees, doctor fees, medications, etc. And, of course, you’d still have tto contend with the other 80% of homeless people, including addicts. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/156 "2021-05-13T10:57:54Z")
Oh gawd, you’re right. Lets just put them in jail. It’s cheaper. I’m sure if there were a concerted effort and agreement as to what needed to be done with homeless addicts and mentally ill the costs would come down substantially. But that isn’t going to happen apparently, so why even worry about the cost? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/157 "2021-05-13T17:17:05Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I’m sure if there were a concerted effort and agreement as to what needed to be done with homeless addicts and mentally ill the costs would come down substantially. I don’t see how effort and concurrence would bring down the costs of commitment. Not that I think involuntary commitment is the answer. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/158 "2021-05-13T17:59:00Z")
Here’s a story about the hotels and what the aim is. Basically, they are supportive care facilities. There is physical and mental health available on site which helps prevent the cost of emergency medicine that goes billed but unpaid. > **[‘I won’: Austinite exiting homelessness after 8-month stay at city-owned hotel](https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/i-won-austinite-exiting-homelessness-after-8-month-stay-at-city-owned-hotel/)** > > Austin City Council will vote on Thursday to purchase a fourth hotel for permanent supportive housing, the Candlewood Suites in northwest Austin, which has been met with protests from area homeowne… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/159 "2021-05-13T18:18:56Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I don’t see how effort and concurrence would bring down the costs of commitment It wouldn’t directly. But as @BeeGee’s story points out there are a lot of other costs of homelessness that are borne by the public but don’t get labeled as being paid due to homelessness. Time & expense for homeless in jails, LEO man-hours, the dedicated workers patrolling San Francisco’s streets to pick up the feces, etc. As in business, government management steers by a “control panel” looking at revenues and costs. If large fractions of reality aren’t captured accurately by the numbers shown on the panel, it’s hardy surprising when management makes fantasy-based decisions. And that’s even before we allow politics into the picture. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/160 "2021-05-13T20:22:02Z")
Thanks much, and I understand what you’re saying. pkbites wants the homeless who are mentally ill and/or addicts confined or committed, however, and his comment indicated he thinks trying harder and agreeing could decrease the costs of confinement/commitment. How would the costs of psych wards or, since he raised the possibility, jails, be lessened by effort and agreement? That’s what I’m hoping he–or you–or anyone–will explain. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/161 "2021-05-13T23:40:42Z")
I have to agree- for a very very few. Those who are truly unable to take care of themselves. But most _can_ function- just not in todays society with the 9-5 ratrace, etc. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755/162 "2021-05-13T23:42:43Z")
I can’t speak for @pkbites. He’s pretty good at speaking for himself. As you suggest, I can’t see that we can house the homeless mentally ill, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, any cheaper that we institutionalize those mentally ill that we do now. What we _might_ be able to do is as I almost suggested. Take a thorough all-causes and all-effects audit of the homeless mess and identify how we can fund doing the right thing by reducing the expense of cleaning up after the consequences of doing the wrong thing. That won’t be cost-neutral, not by a long shot. But it might (in a sane nation, which we decidedly do _not_ have) be the spoonful of sugar that gets the medicine down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/austin-texas-proposition-b/940755.md?page=9)