# Auto mechanic fraud? Beating the "book rate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090 "2003-06-06T14:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/61 "2003-06-07T19:10:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*Oh, I read the posts just fine. You have a preconceived notion of what consumer fraud is and don’t care whether the facts support you. > > Specifically? OK. When you go into a mechanic’s office and ask what the charge will be for something and how it’s determined, the mechanic will respond something like “We charge the posted rate per hour above times the number of hours specified in this book, plus parts.” You now know the charge and the basis for the charge. No fraud. Since you have incorrectly asserted without evidence several times in this thread, the evidence is on you to demonstrate otherwise. > > I’m not running a rant forum here. \*\* First, let’s lose the attitude. You’re ranting as much as anyone and your quip about my thoughts/opinions being “wholly irrelevant” are inflammatory and set a poor example for others. Whereas I’m sure you’ve read the posts, my concern is that you fail to understand the opposing views, despite your protestations to the contrary. Do you really believe that consumers nationwide invariably understand how mechanics determine labor charges–or that even the majority of said consumers have any inkling as to how “book rates” are determined, or that book rates are even used? You speak authoritatively as to how mechanics respond to questions from consumers. From what authority do you speak? What coherent methodology supports your opinion? Instead of basing your argument on fact and statistics–the advertised driving force behind this forum–your position is mere speculation. That said, I’ll agree that the opposing positions have solidified and this thread has degenerated into an un-GQ debate. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/62 "2003-06-07T19:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by norinew \* > \*\*I’m not sure I believe this thread belongs in GQ. **Country Squire** doesn’t seem to be looking for a factual answer, but rather an argument. Many people have posted with factual answers to the question. I believe this particular forum is for questions where a truthful, factual answer is actually desired. It sounds to me like **CS** made up his/her mind prior to posting the question, and no answer is going to be suitable. \*\* I, Bernse, and others have provided facts. The opposing side has provided facts. Your implicit message seems to be that views in opposition to the OP are inherently factual whereas those aligned with the OP are not. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/63 "2003-06-07T19:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Country Squire \* > **First, let’s lose the attitude. You’re ranting as much as anyone and your quip about my thoughts/opinions being “wholly irrelevant” are inflammatory and set a poor example for others.** They’re not inflammatory–they’re accurate. Your opinions are, indeed, irrelevant in GQ. Manhatten is correct to say so, and in no way ranting when he tells you this. > [@](#): > > \*\*You speak authoritatively as to how mechanics respond to questions from consumers. From what authority do you speak? What coherent methodology supports your opinion? \*\* A question you might ask yourself, as well–on what authority do you assume that most service writers (because that’s who the customer usually deals with directly) don’t answer questions in the way manhatten described? His experience certainly matches mine. Have you done some objective, careful study of the matter? Are you a service writer or a tech yourself? Hmm?? > [@](#): > > **Instead of basing your argument on fact and statistics–the advertised driving force behind this forum–your position is mere speculation.** I’d say his argument is based on his real experience in the matter. What is yours based on? Your assumption that the use of book time means the job is being charged by the hour–an entirely incorrect assumption. Where are _your_ facts and statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/64 "2003-06-07T19:33:26Z")
> **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. Determine Pricing Policy: There are two methods for pricing repairs and knowing which one your shop uses says a lot about how much you’ll ultimately pay for a repair. If your shop uses “Book Rate” pricing, they are relying on a nationally published estimating manual which establishes the number of hours you should be charged for a specific job, regardless of how long it actually takes to do the job. This pricing cuts both ways. For example, under “book rate” pricing, you might expect to pay for 2 hours to replace an exhaust system. But if the mechanic only takes an 1 1/2 hours to do the job, you’ll still pay for two. The other way is to pay based on the “actual time” it takes to do the job. Under the best scenario, you should ask to be charged for actual time, not to exceed book rate for a particular job. [http://autorepair.about.com/library/kbusch/bl-kbusch03.htm](http://autorepair.about.com/library/kbusch/bl-kbusch03.htm) When using the book rate method, even if the brake job takes the mechanic only 55 minutes to complete, the customer is still charged for 1.5 hours of time. The book rate method of doing vehicle repairs generally benefits the garage and not the customer. > **[Car News, Blogs & Analysis | Cars.com](https://www.cars.com/news/)** > > Browse up-to-the-minute automotive news and analysis, including expert reviews of the latest cars on the market, at Cars.com. But the answer is “no,” Ed. We’ve almost never seen the flat-rate book work in the customer’s favor. But it’s not designed to work in the customer’s favor. It’s designed to help the shop set and defend a reasonably high price for a repair. And to be fair, one thing most people don’t know is that the flat rate also includes time for diagnosis. But despite that, the book rate almost always favors the repair shop. In more cases than not, an experienced mechanic can “beat the book” because he’s done that particular job many times over. And what’s wrong with that? That’s his reward for being skilled and experienced. and repair shops often use the book rate as an incentive for their mechanics. If, for example, the book allows 3.4 hours for a repair, and the mechanic finishes in 1.5 hours, the mechanic earns a bonus. The dealership also “earns” a bonus because it gets paid for 3.4 hours of labor. So the dealer can do 16 hours worth of business in an eight-hour day! And everybody’s happy … except you. Tom: So you’re right, Ed. It mostly does not work in your favor (and, in fact, it’s very unfair sometimes). But it’s also the only standard measure that the industry has. > **[drivethebestbook.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=drivethebestbook&e=com)** > > Find your domain name at HugeDomains. Start using this domain right away. Next, visit a few of the garages, talk with the owner, and ask about the hourly rate charged for vehicle repairs. Also inquire if the rate charged for the repairs is a “straight hourly rate” or a “book rate.” When using the book rate method, even if the brake job takes the mechanic only 1 hour to complete, the customer is still charged for 2 hours of time. The book rate method of doing vehicle repairs generally benefits the garage and not the customer. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/65 "2003-06-07T19:44:18Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* **They’re not inflammatory–they’re accurate. Your opinions are, indeed, irrelevant in GQ. Manhatten is correct to say so, and in no way ranting when he tells you this.** After which Manhattan injects his own opinions, sans facts or statistics. **A question you might ask yourself, as well–on what authority do you assume that most service writers (because that’s who the customer usually deals with directly) don’t answer questions in the way manhatten described? His experience certainly matches mine. Have you done some objective, careful study of the matter? Are you a service writer or a tech yourself? I’d say his argument is based on his real experience in the matter. What is yours based on? Your assumption that the use of book time means the job is being charged by the hour–an entirely incorrect assumption.** Your argument is absurd, but I’ll play along. Read your post above. You blanketly object to the injection of opinion, then follow up with this whopper, “I’d say [Manhattan’s] argument is based on his real experience in the matter.” When did anecdotal experience = fact? Also note that you are basing your argument on a sample size of two. Is that what you consider a fact? If so, I have satisfied your definition of fact-based discussion. Last, what possible advantage is conferred by being a mechanic or service writer? Once again, you are slipping into anecdotal experience and opinion. A fact-driven discussion deserves better than this. \*\*Where are _your_ facts and statistics? \*\* See my post above. Manhattan’s turn. Please provide facts that shore up your claim that consumers nationwide possess a clear understanding of the particulars in the “book rate” pricing system. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/66 "2003-06-07T21:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Country Squire \* > \*\* > > When did anecdotal experience = fact?\*\* Since I didn’t make it up, it’s a fact. > [@](#): > > \*\* Also note that you are basing your argument on a sample size of two. Is that what you consider a fact?\*\* Um, yes. It is a fact that two people had this experience. It may be that not everyone has this experience–in fact, I’d say everyone doesn’t, since I know there are shops out there where the management doesn’t want to be upfront about how they’re charging. Now, a sample size of two may not be significant. That’s different from it not being a fact. And while I can tell you my factual, personal experience, you have nothing to offer but the refusal to believe that my experience is actually true. > [@](#): > > \*\* If so, I have satisfied your definition of fact-based discussion.\*\* No–you assert your opinion (that flat rate repair charges are fraud). Your assertion is based on an incorrect understanding of just what fraud is. You offer not even an anecdote to back your claims–just assertions of your opinion that it’s somehow cheating to use book time. If you could give a specific example of how you were actually cheated, that would be a fact. > [@](#): > > \*\*Last, what possible advantage is conferred by being a mechanic or service writer? Once again, you are slipping into anecdotal experience and opinion. A fact-driven discussion deserves better than this. \*\* Anecdotal experience is still fact. A tech or service writer who has worked for a long time in the industry would have a good deal of experience with selling jobs to customers, and answering their questions–firsthand knowledge. Facts. Now, anecdotes aren’t neccesarily all significant. Anecdotes from people with a good deal of experience in the question at hand are going to be weighted more heavily. If you have never worked in the industry, and have no personal experience actually discussing pricing policies with techs or service writers, what the heck are you basing your assumptions on? It is a fact, not an opinion, that when I have asked about the pricing of repair jobs, I have always received answers similar to the one manhatten gave. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the disparity between book time and repair time is not as wide as people who don’t actually make the repairs think–I think that has been pretty amply demonstrated in this thread. My relating my experience is not relating my opinion. It may be anecdotal, but it is still a fact. You have not related your experiences, you have related your opinions and assumptions. > [@](#): > > \*\*Where are _your_ facts and statistics? \*\* > > See my post above. Oh, please. Those quotes say only that some shops charge using book time and some charge by the amount of time it takes to do a repair–something that was never in dispute here. They point out that book time isn’t neccesarily in the customer’s favor, a point that is also not in dispute. Not perfect for the customer !=fraud. You have failed to demonstrate that using book time is customer fraud. Not with your cites, not with your anecdotes. Every “fact” you have produced has conspicuously failed to demonstrate that any fraud is involved. And in fact your last quote specifically advises asking the shop about their billing practices. Now, why would they bother telling you to ask if you’re not going to get an answer? A shop that doesn’t answer that question may, indeed, be committing fraud. A shop that is upfront about how it charges for repairs is not committing fraud, whether they use book time or not, no matter how much they charge, or how angry you are at them for charging what they do. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/67 "2003-06-07T21:35:30Z")
**manhattan** posted this > [@](#): > > When you go into a mechanic’s office and ask what the charge will be for something and how it’s determined, the mechanic will respond something like “We charge the posted rate per hour above times the number of hours specified in this book, plus parts.” That’s pretty clearly his experience. \*\*Bren’\*\*s experience is similar. Mine differs only in that I’ve never asked how the price was set- and I therefore get a quote like "The brakes are going to be $200 "- no mention of hours at all. The _only_ way using the book rate is fraud is if when you bring in your car for repairs, you aren’t given a price for repairs and you’re simply told “$60 an hour for labor plus parts”. I would be shocked if any mechanic quoted a price like that for a repair, and even more shocked if a customer agreed to a repair without knowing the approximate total cost in advance.Exactly how does your mechanic give you an estimate? If it’s a dollar amount rather than a price per hour, you’re making an absolutely unwarranted assumption that you’re paying for actual hours of work. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/auto-mechanic-fraud-beating-the-book-rate/180090/68 "2003-06-07T21:53:30Z")
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