# Ava DuVernay hiring only female directors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719 "2018-05-06T21:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/41 "2018-05-07T22:07:07Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > If you’ve got a show that you’re distinguishing as being helmed by women, then it’s pretty important that you only hire women to helm the show. Hence, it would become a claim of a bona fide occupational requirement. But that seems like way too obvious a loophole. There’s, on the surface, no obvious reason why it should matter whether an episode of television is directed by a man or a woman. Or a black person or a white person. Or a gay person or a straight person. It seems a bit questionable to try to get around that by saying “Well, I’m promoting my show as one where all the directors are women. Therefore, I have a legitimate justification for hiring only women.” I mean, if you can just say “part of the appeal of X is that the consumer knows that all the people producing it had characteristic Y”, well, then you can say that about anything at any time and always have a justification for discrimination in whatever direction you want. “Sure, my extremely whitewashed production of _The South Shall Rise Again_ hired only white men as directors, editors, sound designers and cameramen. But you can’t sue me for employment discrimination, because part of the appeal of the show to its core audience of racists is knowing that it was produced in a racially pure fashion…” ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/42 "2018-05-07T22:29:10Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > “Sure, my extremely whitewashed production of _The South Shall Rise Again_ hired only white men as directors, editors, sound designers and cameramen. But you can’t sue me for employment discrimination, because part of the appeal of the show to its core audience of racists is knowing that it was produced in a racially pure fashion…” I see you didn’t bother reading anything on bona fide occupational qualifications. Not even on wiki. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/43 "2018-05-07T22:35:02Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I see you didn’t bother reading anything on bona fide occupational qualifications. Not even on wiki. How is that any different than what you’re describing in post #40? > [@](#): > > If you’ve got a show **that you’re distinguishing as being helmed by women** , then it’s pretty important that you only hire women to helm the show. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/44 "2018-05-07T23:25:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Hollywood is not an entity. …I’m entirely comfortable characterizing and lumping in all the major studios and production companies as an entity called “Hollywood.” The statistics are the same across the board: there are no outliers, there is no need to make a distinction. > [@](#): > > Each production company or studio is an entity. It may be that the people in charge of the production companies and studios are all sexists and discriminate against but that is hard to prove. I don’t think its that hard to prove at all. The numbers say it all. > [@](#): > > If Ms DuVernay follows through on her threat then she should be sued. She is, she will, and if you want to sue her then go for it. > [@](#): > > It makes no sense to discriminate against one man because another man got another job from someone else. That is a gross mischaracterization of what is happening here. > [@](#): > > Should a restaurateur be able to announce that they will not hire hispanics just because so many other restaurants hire them? The position of many libertarians is that people should be able to hire whomever they like. So how would you answer this question? > [@](#): > > Either discrimination is bad or its not. “Discrimination” is such a loaded word. From the dictionary definition, it requires either a measure of “unjustness” or “prejudice”: and I don’t see either of those two things applying here. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/45 "2018-05-07T23:31:41Z")
I just found this: [ > [@](#): > > Darden restaurants—the company behind Red Lobster, Olive Garden, and other chains—will pay $2.8 million dollars in a settlement stemming from a lawsuit that alleged its Seasons 52 restaurants deliberately didn’t hire older, white men. ]([Restaurant Group Pays $2.8 Million In "anti-Old White Guy" Hiring Lawsuit](https://thetakeout.com/restaurant-group-pays-2-8-million-in-anti-old-white-g-1825773062)) Ms DuVernay might find her statement rather expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/46 "2018-05-07T23:36:42Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > All of those are of the effects on individual women being disproportionately affected by flops, but this is being pushed as ‘women’ running the show. Showcasing women’s skills. All fine it’s a great show, but effectively holding the show up as evidence of what happens when you give women a chance obviously runs a risk. …runs a risk of what? Its going to happen anyway. A Wrinkle in Time wasn’t financially successful and received only moderate critical attention, and many attributed its relative failure to the fact that Ava was a woman, and that she tried to make the movie “SJW.” This was the biggest budget ever given to a black woman. She was positioned as representative of what happens when you “give a woman money to make a movie.” There are people out there using this as an example of why women aren’t capable of making big budget movies. So the “risk” of giving women the opportunity of running a show isn’t really a risk. All of the consequences you mentioned will happen anyway: they will happen even if the TV show turns out to be a success. What you are doing is you are holding woman to different standards than you do men. Nearly every show on TV right now is male dominated in production, below and above the line, in casting, in everything. If a show with all male directors and all male writers fail (and yes, they actually exist), do you attribute their failure to the fact that it was an all male production team? > [@](#): > > A flop wouldn’t just be just attributed to the individual women involved, it’d be likely seen as a reflection on women in the industry in general. Even more than normal, which yes, happens anyway. Nah, it wouldn’t be “any more than normal.” It would just be the same. > [@](#): > > I’m not bothered because they hired women, but because they made a big deal out of it, before the show was even recorded. Who is making a “big deal?” Ava shared an anecdote during a talk, and the the anecdote went viral. And it went viral because there are thousands of women who are happy that there are people who are willing to stand up for them in the industry. It went viral as a show of solidarity: you can’t fight that. And if that bothers you: well, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/47 "2018-05-07T23:46:49Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I just found this: > > [URL=“[Restaurant Group Pays $2.8 Million In "anti-Old White Guy" Hiring Lawsuit](https://thetakeout.com/restaurant-group-pays-2-8-million-in-anti-old-white-g-1825773062)”] > > Ms DuVernay might find her statement rather expensive. …I strongly suspect that Hollywood has more to worry about that Ms DuVernay does based on what has happened over the last few decades. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/48 "2018-05-07T23:59:08Z")
No shit. Anyone trying to take this nonsense to court is going to be laughed right out of it, but let’s play hypothetical. Say someone successfully sued DuVernay regarding her “all women” policy–I figure the next step would be seeing a hailstorm of suits going the other way demanding parity of women in all aspects and levels of film making and tv. Literally sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander. How many production companies, studios, tv shows, etc., could actually bear up to scrutiny regarding hiring practices when the only way to prove you don’t discriminate against one sex or the other would be to demonstrate that the percentage of each gender working for you is exactly the same as the population in general? Hint: “none of them.” But sure, it would be all kinds of entertaining to watch this one go down. Then we can demand that all CEOs be at least 50% women, all sports teams, every legislative body, every single place where anyone has a job will have to be rigorously 50% female or boy howdy, they’re discriminatory. I’m sure that would cause no furor whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/49 "2018-05-08T00:17:14Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > … Anyone who doesn’t like it can, basically, suck it. Their loss, it’s a helluva show. IANAL, but I’m pretty sure our anti-discrimination laws don’t work like this. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/50 "2018-05-08T00:20:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I strongly suspect that Hollywood has more to worry about that Ms DuVernay does based on what has happened over the last few decades. “Hollywood” isn’t going to sue her. Some discriminated-against male producer is, and I think he’s got a decent chance of winning given her public statements. ETA: It would seem a far easier lawsuit to win where the defendant made clear, public statements about their overtly-sexist hiring practices than one where the defendant made no such statements. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/51 "2018-05-08T00:24:22Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > No shit. Anyone trying to take this nonsense to court is going to be laughed right out of it, but let’s play hypothetical. Say someone successfully sued DuVernay regarding her “all women” policy–I figure the next step would be seeing a hailstorm of suits going the other way demanding parity of women in all aspects and levels of film making and tv. Literally sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander. How many production companies, studios, tv shows, etc., could actually bear up to scrutiny regarding hiring practices when the only way to prove you don’t discriminate against one sex or the other would be to demonstrate that the percentage of each gender working for you is exactly the same as the population in general? Hint: “none of them.” IANAL, but I feel like employment discrimination is very hard to prove. In fact, it’s nearly impossible to prove, unless there’s a public quote from one of the showrunners saying “we deliberately hired only directors from racial/gender category X”. Except that of course in this day and age no one would say that out loud. _Except that that’s precisely what Ava DuV did_. So, ironically, we might be in a situation in which the most benign and utterly understandable instance of “discrimination” in the history of Hollywood is the only one that could be successfully prosecuted in a court of law. In any case, IF lawsuits could be successfully brought against one or more Hollywood studios for their hiring practices in the present or recent past (I assume there’s some statute-of-limitations-esque principle of some sort, it seems fairly pointless to sue a studio now for its hiring practices in the 1970s), well, then they _should_ be brought, and there’s no reason for that to be in any way contingent upon someone suing or not suing Ava DuV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/52 "2018-05-08T00:28:48Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > … How many production companies, studios, tv shows, etc., could actually bear up to scrutiny regarding hiring practices when the only way to prove you don’t discriminate against one sex or the other would be to demonstrate that the percentage of each gender working for you is exactly the same as the population in general? Hint: “none of them.” … I’m not sure if you’re maybe not American, but here in this country our laws don’t work like this. One is considered “innocent until proven guilty”. The production companies that might get sued in your hypothetical won’t need to “prove [they] don’t discriminate against one sex or the other”. The burden of proof falls on the plaintiff. It’s up to them to prove any claims of discrimination, not on the defendant to prove the absence of the same. ETA: ninja’d by **MaxTheVool** ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/53 "2018-05-08T00:34:04Z")
Oh, I’m definitely American and I know how the laws are written AND how they work out in practice, and I’m saying that it would be fucking awesome IF some disaffected penis person sued to direct _Queen Sugar_ and won. Because I’d bet a nickel that Oprah would be totes down to fund a HUGE legal team to sue likewise to benefit every single woman who was turned down for a directing job in favor of a man. Suit after suit after suit after suit after suit. Strikes me as just the kind of thing a black female billionaire might find amusing to spend a few million on. So hey, bring it. Because if you think there aren’t ANY men in power in Hollywood who have NEVER made denigrating comments about the general ability of women to write and direct movies and tv I have a spiffy bridge for sale. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/54 "2018-05-08T00:42:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Hollywood” isn’t going to sue her. …I never claimed they would. > [@](#): > > Some discriminated-against male producer is, and I think he’s got a decent chance of winning given her public statements. A male producer would have an extremely difficult time proving that this production had discriminated against him. Queen Sugar doesn’t need any more producers, producers make very poor directors. It would be the height of male privilege for a male producer to bring a lawsuit about being discriminated against for not getting a job as a director. > [@](#): > > ETA: It would seem a far easier lawsuit to win where the defendant made clear, public statements about their overtly-sexist hiring practices than one where the defendant made no such statements. As Ava herself says: > [@](#): > > "Thank you, friend, thank you for that call. I invite you to tell whoever is feeling discriminated against to sue me so that I can sue every studio that has left women out . . . ’cause we can do this, if that’s what you want to do.” I really think that people are underestimating what is going on here. In the grand-scheme of things a lawsuit is insignificant. The “system” doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked, and if things keep going the way that they are they will never work. Hollywood is broken. If #metoo didn’t make that abundantly clear then I’m not entirely sure what will. Hollywood isn’t going to change unless people make a stand. And what is happening here is that people have chosen to make a stand. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/55 "2018-05-08T00:46:15Z")
Ava DuVernay saw Obama do the “Proceed, governor” thing. Some people, you just leave a big ol coil of rope laying around and sure as shit they’re gonna be hanging from a rafter pretty soon. They can’t help themselves, it’s in their nature. Entitled people get hung up on what’s “owed” to them and never stop to see the wider implications of their tantrums. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/56 "2018-05-08T01:12:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I really think that people are underestimating what is going on here. In the grand-scheme of things a lawsuit is insignificant. The “system” doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked, and if things keep going the way that they are they will never work. Hollywood is broken. If #metoo didn’t make that abundantly clear then I’m not entirely sure what will. Hollywood isn’t going to change unless people make a stand. And what is happening here is that people have chosen to make a stand. And the way they chose to “make a stand” was by implementing their own sex discrimination hiring practices. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/57 "2018-05-08T01:20:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And the way they chose to “make a stand” was by implementing their own sex discrimination hiring practices. :rolleyes: …once again: discrimination isn’t the correct word to be using here. There is no “unjustness” or “prejudice” at play. Every woman hired for this production will be qualified, will have experience, will have the appropriate credentials, will understand the creative vision of the project. In your humble opinion: what would be the correct way to “make a stand?” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/58 "2018-05-08T01:27:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …once again: discrimination isn’t the correct word to be using here. There is no “unjustness” or “prejudice” at play. … I’m pretty confident you’re wrong about this. > [@](#): > > Sex discrimination involves treating someone (an applicant or employee) unfavorably because of that person’s sex. > > … > > The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment. source: [U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission](https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … In your humble opinion: what would be the correct way to “make a stand?” I’d recommend something legal. [Here](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/5-2-18.cfm) is a relevant example from last week: > [@](#): > > The Children’s Home, Inc., a Tampa nonprofit child care organization also known as the Children’s Home Network, will pay $18,000 and provide training for its human resources and management employees to settle a sex discrimination lawsuit brought by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the agency announced today. > > The EEOC’s lawsuit charged that The Children’s Home violated federal law when it refused to consider a male employee, Luis Vasquez, for a position in its maternity home program based on his sex. The suit further alleged that, Vasquez, after voicing his concerns about the company’s refusal to consider him because he is a male, was prevented from applying to any other positions with the organization. > > Both male and female employees are protected from discrimination on the basis of sex stereotypes under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. … ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/59 "2018-05-08T01:34:44Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > and there’s no reason for that to be in any way contingent upon someone suing or not suing Ava DuV. …well here’s the thing. Lawsuits are really expensive. And taking Hollywood studios to court would be a really really expensive and painful thing to do. The ACLU have been working on this for a long while now. They were working with the EEOC, but with the change in administration I don’t think anyone has a clue as to how that is progressing now. But a lot of the legwork is already done. If someone did decide to sue DuVernay, then the defense will open up a Pandora’s box of information that, to be quite frank, I’m pretty sure Hollywood doesn’t want to have going through the courts. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/60 "2018-05-08T01:36:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …If someone did decide to sue DuVernay, then the defense will open up a Pandora’s box of information that, to be quite frank, I’m pretty sure Hollywood doesn’t want to have going through the courts. “Hollywood” doesn’t have any say in the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=4)