# Ava DuVernay hiring only female directors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719 "2018-05-06T21:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/81 "2018-05-08T19:19:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A large majority of those admitted to veterinary colleges in the US are women. [Cite](https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100215g.aspx). AFAIK this is not as a result of affirmative action programs. > > Regards, > Shodan I know and I agree. The point I was alluding to is that various fields have gender imbalances without any obvious connection to sexism (unless one believes that veterinary colleges are sexist against men, or perhaps as **SmartAleq** seems to allude to, that men are genetically inferior). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/82 "2018-05-08T19:37:36Z")
I really doubt any male director is going to sue over this. Ava DuVernay draws a lot of water in the industry, and even if your suit was successful you’d have the reputation of being a litigious asshole who wasn’t worth working with. Your career would be much better served by looking for a gig on one of the shows that didn’t have this policy, which is every show except for this one and maybe Jessica Jones. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/83 "2018-05-08T19:45:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Cite? > **[FAQs - AAVMC](http://www.aavmc.org/about-aavmc/faqs/#media)** > > Below you will find answers to some frequently asked questions about the AAVMC and academic veterinary medicine. Should you not find answers to the question(s) you have below, please feel free to contact us and we will be pleased to help you.  > [@](#): > > Since there are only 30 CVMs in the U.S. is it difficult to get into veterinary school? > > There’s a pervasive myth that getting into veterinary medical school is much more difficult than getting into human medical school, but that’s not supported by the data. Nearly 50 percent of those who apply to veterinary medical school end up attending, a percentage that is comparable to human medical school. Individual acceptance rates vary greatly between schools. Not harder, but generally equivalent. I used to work for a company that handled the standard veterinary school applications and they were very competitive with students applying to many schools per application. Some submitted applications many years in a row until they were accepted or moved on. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/84 "2018-05-08T19:51:37Z")
It’s disingenuous to call a business or organization “equal opportunity” just because it has stated a policy to that effect. The fact that you might or might not be hired is only the tip of a very large iceberg. Nobody chooses a job simply on the basis of “If I apply, do I have any chance at all of being hired?” - unless they’re just desperate for money and will take anything. Saying “If you apply, you’re guaranteed a chance at a job” is as helpful as those “Congratulations, you’ve won a chance at our grand prize!” flyers that come in the mail. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/85 "2018-05-08T20:13:46Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I really doubt any male director is going to sue over this. Ava DuVernay draws a lot of water in the industry, and even if your suit was successful you’d have the reputation of being a litigious asshole who wasn’t worth working with. … You may be right. Weinstein certainly intimidated a lot of women into keeping quiet about his abuses and bad behavior for a lot of years, so Hollywood has a bit of a precedent of this sort of thing. Meanwhile, the OP asked: > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) I’m curious about the legality of this. If some guy sends in an application to work as her sound editor (or whatever), and a woman gets the job, doesn’t this sort of statement give him far more legal leg to stand on that he otherwise would have, should he wish to sue for gender discrimination? So far, the evidence we have seems to suggest pretty clearly that yes, the discriminated-against male director would have “far more legal leg to stand on that he otherwise would have, should he wish to sue”. Anyone still disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/86 "2018-05-08T20:28:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You may be right. Weinstein certainly intimidated a lot of women into keeping quiet about his abuses and bad behavior for a lot of years, so Hollywood has a bit of a precedent of this sort of thing. You’re not really comparing a policy of hiring only women for a single TV show to sexual abuse and assault, are you? In any case Ava DuVernay’s clout has little to do with it. And she isn’t nearly as powerful as Weinstein was. And her policy is public, not a threat of “sleep with me or you’ll never work again” made in a dark hotel room. A person who sued would get a reputation as litigious by the mere act of suing, even if Duvernay said or did nothing at all. The very act would be a red flag to any TV producer. They would be much better off just pursuing their careers. DuVernay isn’t actively going against anyone, the way Weinstein did. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/87 "2018-05-08T21:08:22Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > It’s disingenuous to call a business or organization “equal opportunity” just because it has stated a policy to that effect. The fact that you might or might not be hired is only the tip of a very large iceberg. Nobody chooses a job simply on the basis of “If I apply, do I have any chance at all of being hired?” - unless they’re just desperate for money and will take anything. > > Saying “If you apply, you’re guaranteed a chance at a job” is as helpful as those “Congratulations, you’ve won a chance at our grand prize!” flyers that come in the mail. Saying it means nothing, being shown to enact it and being under scrutiny to prove it is the way to go. Purposefully using sexist discriminatory hiring practices to tackle sexist discriminatory hiring practices doesn’t seem to solve anything. The two don’t cancel out. If you allow one, you validate the other. And even if you chose to do that, exactly when do you stop? would you ensure that every industry was 50:50? How does that work when the vast majority of new teachers, doctors, vets and lawyers are female? Do you cut back their numbers? if not…why not? why is an imbalance in medicine, education law etc. seen as fine, but in engineering it is a problem? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/88 "2018-05-08T21:12:50Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > You’re not really comparing a policy of hiring only women for a single TV show to sexual abuse and assault, are you? Certainly the acts of sex discrimination and sex assault are different degrees of bad, but they are both bad acts, and it sounds like they’re both enabled / perpetuated by the bad actor’s ability to ‘draw a lot of water in the industry’ and the fear their victims might have that if they raise the issue they’ll be labeled “a litigious asshole who wasn’t worth working with” (that sounds almost exactly like the fear that some of Weinstein’s victims had). > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > In any case Ava DuVernay’s clout has little to do with it. … Your post certainly didn’t make this clear. You said she “draws a lot of water in the industry, and even if your suit was successful you’d have the reputation of being a litigious asshole who wasn’t worth working with.” That sounds like her clout has a _lot_ to do with it. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > … A person who sued would get a reputation as litigious by the mere act of suing, even if Duvernay said or did nothing at all. The very act would be a red flag to any TV producer. They would be much better off just pursuing their careers. IIRC, similar fears were expressed about Weinstein’s victims: ‘they didn’t want to come forward because they were afraid they would get a reputation of being difficult to work with.’ > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > … DuVernay isn’t actively going against anyone, the way Weinstein did. She hasn’t, yet, been sued, so she doesn’t have anyone to ‘go against’ (yet). She sounds like enough of a bitch that I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if / when she is sued that she starts “actively going against” them (and using her clout to do so). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/89 "2018-05-08T21:13:59Z")
Sorry for the double post, but think about it. You’re a young rising male director. You’re nowhere near A-list, but you’ve directed a show for ABC and a couple for Netlflix. You also have some editing and photography credits. Your agent thinks he has a couple more television opportunities for you, and a producer is talking to you about a low budget indie film idea you have. On a whim and unaware of her policy, you write to Ava Duvernay about her show, praising it and inquiring about directing opportunities. You get a polite email back thanking you for your kind words and interest but informing you of the show’s women only policy. Is the wise response to politely reply and move on with your other projects or is it to engage in a protracted difficult and expensive lawsuit you may not win? ETA: I posted this without seeing HD’s reply and this is not meant as a direct response to him. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/90 "2018-05-08T21:17:45Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > … Is the wise response to politely reply and move on with your other projects or is it to engage in a protracted difficult and expensive lawsuit you may not win? The scourge of sexual discrimination is not defeated by the people who politely reply and move on. Whether it’s worth the difficulty is for those individuals to decide. I know of a gay couple in Colorado that decided they’d rather “engage in a protracted difficult and expensive lawsuit [they] may not win” than just “politely reply and move on” to another cake shop. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/91 "2018-05-08T21:29:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The scourge of sexual discrimination is not defeated by the people who politely reply and move on. Whether it’s worth the difficulty is for those individuals to decide. I know of a gay couple in Colorado that decided they’d rather “engage in a protracted difficult and expensive lawsuit [they] may not win” than just “politely reply and move on” to another cake shop. Honestly, I would have advised them to find a different cake shop. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/92 "2018-05-08T21:35:46Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Honestly, I would have advised them to find a different cake shop. I agree, it’s a perfectly reasonable recommendation. If some discriminated-against male director’s lawyer told him, “it’s probably not worth it, you won’t make much money, and Ava Duvernay is going to make your life miserable if you try it” and they chose to heed that recommendation, I’d completely understand. None of that make’s Duvernay’s discriminatory policy any less reprehensible, or any more legal. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/93 "2018-05-08T23:34:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Using your own example of primary school teachers: if an all-male school opens in a district, they’re likely to hire mostly-male teachers on account of having an all-male student body. I don’t see how that is likely, desirable, or legal. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/94 "2018-05-08T23:41:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I agree, it’s a perfectly reasonable recommendation. If some discriminated-against male director’s lawyer told him, “it’s probably not worth it, you won’t make much money, and Ava Duvernay is going to make your life miserable if you try it” and they chose to heed that recommendation, I’d completely understand. > > None of that make’s Duvernay’s discriminatory policy any less reprehensible, or any more legal. Seriously? _Reprehensible_? It might be interesting to have a show put together by only people from SW Texas, or only people who have fought in a war, or only women. The question is whether it will result in anything different than the usual way of doing things. It’s not all shows for ever more, it’s an experiment. Maybe we’ll learn something, maybe we won’t. I can see the argument that this isn’t a good idea (although I don’t share it). I can see the argument that this might be technically illegal. I cannot, however, see the argument that his is reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/95 "2018-05-09T00:23:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I agree, it’s a perfectly reasonable recommendation. If some discriminated-against male director’s lawyer told him, “it’s probably not worth it, you won’t make much money, and Ava Duvernay is going to make your life miserable if you try it” and they chose to heed that recommendation, I’d completely understand. > > None of that make’s Duvernay’s discriminatory policy any less reprehensible, or any more legal. Of course there’s a massive difference between a gay person not being served at a cake shop and a male director not being hired for a show, which is that gay people are historically victimized and discriminated against while male directors aren’t. So there’s a much stronger incentive to fight a case of gay rights than a case of male director rights, as one is part of a larger struggle and one isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/96 "2018-05-09T05:16:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Ava DuVernay draws a lot of water in the industry I’ve gotten wise advice to leave this thread, but I did want to walk back this line. I shouldn’t have head quotes from The Big Lebowski in my posts. Especially since **Hurricane Ditka** seems to regard me as an authority on how much power people have in Hollywood. I’m just a guy who watches movies and occasionally reads articles about them. However I would guess that Ava DuVernay has a microscopic fraction of the power Harvey Weinstein had at his peak. I don’t think she could make any aspiring director’s life miserable. What would make an aspiring directors life miserable is the mere act of suing. To take my fictional example upthread, I don’t think my character’s producer would be willing to fund the guy if he was worried he’d get sued if catering served the guy a bad clam. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/97 "2018-05-09T05:57:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Seriously? _Reprehensible_? It might be interesting to have a show put together by only people from SW Texas, or only people who have fought in a war, or only women. The question is whether it will result in anything different than the usual way of doing things. It’s not all shows for ever more, it’s an experiment. Maybe we’ll learn something, maybe we won’t. I can see the argument that this isn’t a good idea (although I don’t share it). I can see the argument that this might be technically illegal. I cannot, however, see the argument that his is reprehensible. Yes, seriously. I’m sorry you don’t see sex discrimination as something reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/98 "2018-05-09T05:59:10Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Seriously? _Reprehensible_? It might be interesting to have a show put together by only people from SW Texas, or only people who have fought in a war, or only women. The question is whether it will result in anything different than the usual way of doing things. It’s not all shows for ever more, it’s an experiment. Maybe we’ll learn something, maybe we won’t. I can see the argument that this isn’t a good idea (although I don’t share it). I can see the argument that this might be technically illegal. I cannot, however, see the argument that his is reprehensible. Yes, seriously. I’m saddened that you don’t see sex discrimination as something reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/99 "2018-05-09T06:00:13Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course there’s a massive difference between a gay person not being served at a cake shop and a male director not being hired for a show, which is that gay people are historically victimized and discriminated against while male directors aren’t. So there’s a much stronger incentive to fight a case of gay rights than a case of male director rights, as one is part of a larger struggle and one isn’t. Personally, I don’t see “a massive difference” or “a much stronger incentive”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/100 "2018-05-09T06:11:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am aghast at how willing some people are to casually and proudly engage in bigotry. You say “bigotry”, I say “[redistibutive justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistributive_justice)” for women… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=6)