# Ava DuVernay hiring only female directors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719 "2018-05-06T21:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/141 "2018-05-09T14:02:59Z")
Well, **Novelty** seems to believe either that his own hiring policies (kudos for them) leveled the field for whatever industry he’s in, or that so long as one little corner of a field is level, one should be happy that the whole field isn’t a 70% slope. DuVernay has decided that creating a slice of playing field isn’t enough: the whole field needs to be even. She’s aiming to achieve that goal by creating a seesaw: by slopping her corner in a way that lets women get CV-building experience they would otherwise be denied, those companies which go for a level-corner approach will then have pools of experienced candidates which are much more equal than what’s now available. Eventually things will spread about and the whole field will be close enough to even, but that takes time. When everybody who gets hired for certain types of positions with no previous experience is type-X, saying “oh, I’m willing to hire anybody with experience in that type of position, therefore I don’t discriminate”… maybe disingineous wasn’t the right word, but it’s a denial of the reality many people in biased fields face day in, day out. One of those fields is non-gender-dependent jobs in the movie industry, from gaffer to director to Scientist#7. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/142 "2018-05-09T14:05:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No they don’t, not to any meaningful extent So, your solution to no “meaningful” oversight is what, exactly? More of the same? > [@](#): > > and if you think that is what I claim then it confirms my suspicion that you are not reading my posts in good faith. You’re always free to correct me, rather than repeatedly calling my motives in doubt like some _ad hominem_ bot. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/143 "2018-05-09T14:11:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Well, **Novelty** seems to believe either that his own hiring policies (kudos for them) leveled the field for whatever industry he’s in, or that so long as one little corner of a field is level, one should be happy that the whole field isn’t a 70% slope. DuVernay has decided that creating a slice of playing field isn’t enough: the whole field needs to be even. She’s aiming to achieve that goal by creating a seesaw: by slopping her corner in a way that lets women get CV-building experience they would otherwise be denied, those companies which go for a level-corner approach will then have pools of experienced candidates which are much more equal than what’s now available. Eventually things will spread about and the whole field will be close enough to even, but that takes time. > > When everybody who gets hired for certain types of positions with no previous experience is type-X, saying “oh, I’m willing to hire anybody with experience in that type of position, therefore I don’t discriminate”… maybe disingineous wasn’t the right word, but it’s a denial of the reality many people in biased fields face day in, day out. One of those fields is non-gender-dependent jobs in the movie industry, from gaffer to director to Scientist#7. Cosigning this. That second paragraph is one excellent example of why option b) you listed above doesn’t really work that well. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/144 "2018-05-09T14:43:07Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well… Yeah. Now here’s a question - do you believe the actions of one producer on one TV show constitute such a severe case of discrimination that all of the non-obvious ways women get shunted away from directorial roles are overcome, leading to an unlevel playing field in favor of women? No, but I still consider it a bad idea, it reinforces the idea that discrimination is valid. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe “I’m going to hire exclusively women for these positions until the representation is considerably less biased” is a bad position to hold. It is a terrible position to take and if it isn’t already illegal (As it is in most industries that I’ve worked in) it should be. > [@](#): > > Any actual complaints about it are hypothetical complaints that will only matter in some far-flung future where such policies are no longer necessary, and that’s a future we’re nowhere near. Hardly hypothetical complaints. It is sexual discrimination pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/145 "2018-05-09T14:54:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, your solution to no “meaningful” oversight is what, exactly? More of the same? You seek, in good faith, to make it better. Things don’t “magically” find their level it takes hard work over many years and it takes that time for attitudes to change and people to die off. > [@](#): > > You’re always free to correct me, rather than repeatedly calling my motives in doubt like some _ad hominem_ bot. When you misrepresent my position. i.e. the “magical” quip, it does the debate a disservice. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/146 "2018-05-09T14:56:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I’ve _made_ a case that it’s not discrimination at all. You can disagree, but then\* you’d\* have to make a case that attempting to correcting the Hollywood gender imbalance is inherently unjust. Because it’d have to be, to be discrimination. Putting aside the validity of the underlying point you’re making, you’re certainly using the word “discrimination” in a way that is quite nonstandard. > [@](#): > > No. It’s telling a two-year old that if a gang of boys took your lunchmoney every day for the whole first 3 terms, it’s OK not to want to play with _any_ boys the last term of the year. Even if “not all boys!” The issue isn’t _one_ boy stealing the money, and it never was. This is a deeply flawed analogy because Ava DuV isn’t just choosing who to play with or hang out with, she’s choosing who to _employ_, and in doing so is subject to a wide variety of laws and regulations, laws and regulations which are in general designed to fight against discrimination, and which are generally “on her side”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/147 "2018-05-09T14:57:07Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s World Toilet Day. What is the relevance of that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/148 "2018-05-09T14:58:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You seek, in good faith, to make it better. It takes two to tango, and the current PTB have shown they’re unwilling to actually dance. > [@](#): > > Things don’t “magically” find their level it takes hard work over many years and it takes that time for attitudes to change and people to die off. You think it’s only the _old_ men who are the problem? > [@](#): > > When you misrepresent my position. > i.e. the “magical” quip, it does the debate a disservice. Like telling someone they’re a part of the problem is a service to debating? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/149 "2018-05-09T15:05:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’ll know when they stop being uppity. Strange choice of words, was that on purpose? > [@](#): > > Also, morality is relative - preferential hiring in an equitable society _would be immoral. So would continuing preferential hiring in an unequal society where such hiring reinforces the inequality. Doing so to fix that inequality, however, is_ moral. Because context matters. No, I don’t really want to be subject to your twisted version of morality. Preferential hiring is immoral and I really don’t think I’m going to be shifted on this. It should be illegal and it pretty is wherever I’ve worked. There are better ways to fix the problem that don’t rely on knee-jerk, headline-grabbing discrimination. Ones that already bear fruit in other areas of industry and have seen more and more women enter the workplace in positions once closed to them. I think we’ve said all that needs to be said ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/150 "2018-05-09T15:06:14Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Putting aside the validity of the underlying point you’re making, you’re certainly using the word “discrimination” in a way that is quite nonstandard. No, I’m using the first definition that pops up on Google: “the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.” IMO, people don’t \*really \*disagree with the definition I’m using, they disagree with what is and isn’t “just” > [@](#): > > This is a deeply flawed analogy because Ava DuV isn’t just choosing who to play with or hang out with, she’s choosing who to _employ_ You \*do \*understand how an analogy works, right? _Nobody’s_ employing anyone on a playground. > [@](#): > > , and in doing so is subject to a wide variety of laws and regulations, laws and regulations which are in general designed to fight against discrimination, and which are generally “on her side”. If she’s doing something illegal, then she should probably stop that.\* If only \*there was some way to test the validity - I bet DuVernay’s never thought of that! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/151 "2018-05-09T15:10:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Preferential hiring is immoral and I really don’t think I’m going to be shifted on this. If that’s your view, you’re probably opposed to what DuVernay is doing. It’s not a universal truth, however. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/152 "2018-05-09T15:14:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What is the relevance of that? You’ll have to ask the poster who brought up the date. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/153 "2018-05-09T15:19:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Strange choice of words, was that on purpose? _Of course_ it was deliberate. I mean, the parallels between what DuVernay is doing and race-based Affirmative Action just write my lines for me. Would you have preferred something with less baggage? How about “strident”? “Screeching”? “Shrill”? “Termagaunt”? “Shrewish?” > [@](#): > > No, I don’t really want to be subject to your twisted version of morality. Preferential hiring is immoral and I really don’t think I’m going to be shifted on this. So, in answer to my previous question - you’re against all affirmative action and Title IX actions too, I take it? > [@](#): > > It should be illegal and it pretty is wherever I’ve worked. There are better ways to fix the problem that don’t rely on knee-jerk, headline-grabbing discrimination. That you think this is “knee-jerk”, rather than a considered, calculating response to systemic injustice, is more telling of you than DuVernay. And you say “headline-grabbing” like it’s some kind of pejorative. Sure, if that was \*all \*it was, it’d be bad, (and you seem to be implying that’s the sole reason for the move, which : :rolleyes: )but as a _side effect_? All I can say is “Damn straight, you get that press, girl!” > [@](#): > > Ones that already bear fruit in other areas of industry and have seen more and more women enter the workplace in positions once closed to them. This is not my experience of tech firms, and if I were hiring, I’d only hire women, as well. And my country would actively reward me for doing so, I might add. > [@](#): > > I think we’ve said all that needs to be said Leaving so soon? Well, I’m always here if you need to talk. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/154 "2018-05-09T15:20:22Z")
As a final statement. Discrimination in hiring policy is always morally wrong, even with the best intentions. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Lasting change won’t come about by actions like DuVernay’s but it has come about in other areas without any need for suchlike and to make it last you are going to need that robust regulation, legislation and education anyway, so it makes sense to start there. That’s it. Now we’ve started repeating ourselves and arguing over word definition plus I’ve made all the points I want to and it is all more heat than light so that’s always my cue to leave. Others will have other points to make I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/155 "2018-05-09T15:20:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You’ll have to ask the poster who brought up the date. Or, you know, a simple internet search… ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/156 "2018-05-09T15:29:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or, you know, a simple internet search… I did. It’s World Toilet Day. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/157 "2018-05-09T15:30:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. Nice fortune cookie wisdom, but really just another logical fallacy - it’s begging the question. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/158 "2018-05-09T15:36:39Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I did. It’s World Toilet Day. It’s also Women’s Entrepreneurship Day, which is fitting for this thread yet [ironic given the \*other \*observance it shares the date with](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/159 "2018-05-09T15:43:21Z")
Looks like for Title VII violations it’s typically EEOC that files the suit. State laws may differ. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719/160 "2018-05-09T16:05:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I know and I agree. The point I was alluding to is that various fields have gender imbalances without any obvious connection to sexism … And you are correct, of course. The fact that gender imbalances can correct themselves, and even shift to politically correct imbalances, is further evidence that they aren’t driven by sexism. My father was a veterinarian and a male\*, and he saw the shift first-hand, from hardly any women to mostly women. He put it down mostly to the shift to mostly small-animal practice, and away from large-animal - doing a digital exam on a twenty pound cat is not as physically stressful as sticking your arm up the rectum of a fifteen hundred pound steer. Regards, Shodan \*Included the disclaimer because, well, it’s the SDMB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-hiring-only-female-directors/813719.md?page=9)