# Ava DuVernay pulled off the seemingly impossible **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2018, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332 "2018-03-28T08:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/1 "2018-03-28T08:58:23Z")
DuVernay experimentally found the answer to the question “Could a celebrated black female director make a big budget film in 2018 that is super into diversity and inclusive messaging, but is of such execrable cinematic quality that it still manages to get a negative score on Rotten Tomatoes?” I honestly would have thought the answer was “no”, but but she managed to pull it off! (And I don’t feel sorry for her, after the way she slandered LBJ.) Relatedly: OMG, funny because true: > **[Negative Review Of ‘A Wrinkle In Time’ Peppered With Critic Assuring Readers...](https://www.theonion.com/negative-review-of-a-wrinkle-in-time-peppered-with-cr-1823656342)** > > OAKLAND, CA—Alternating his problems with the film’s story structure, pacing, and overall tone with effusive praise for the cast of strong, multicultural women, Bay Area Examiner film columnist Justin Garren published a negative review of A Wrinkle... > [@](#): > > Alternating his problems with the film’s story structure, pacing, and overall tone with effusive praise for the cast of strong, multicultural women, Bay Area Examiner film columnist Justin Garren published a negative review of A Wrinkle In Time Friday in which he nevertheless took pains to remind his readership of his support for diversity[…] > At press time, Garren had taken to social media to promote his thinkpiece lavishing praise on virtually every aspect of Black Panther. But yeah: this movie was truly awful. Cloyingly sentimental glurge. Believe in yourself, face your fears, love will conquer all, yadda yadda. WE GET IT. I was bored and annoyed throughout. It’s also in one of my least favorite categories of movies, those that claim to be about physics but the “physics” onscreen is in fact ludicrous. Inclusivity is awesome, but let’s still insist on cinematic quality. The gulf in quality between this film and, say, “Moonlight”, is as vast as it gets. (“Black Panther” is a bit overrated, certainly not in the league of “Moonlight”, but it’s still FAR better than this steaming pile of shite.) One more thing, which is technically a spoiler—so if you haven’t seen the movie and actually plan to, you are hereby warned. It’s hardly unique to this movie, but I hate the cliché that it is always the wrong choice to save the majority of the group at the expense of leaving one behind. Chris Pine’s character had every reason to believe that if they stayed, they would all be doomed. So to leave and save the other three was the brave and correct choice. Unless he had some indication that if Meg just told her brother she loved him a bunch of times, they would win. But I didn’t see any hint of a reason to expect that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/2 "2018-03-28T09:50:31Z")
The movie slandered LBJ? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/3 "2018-03-28T10:07:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The movie slandered LBJ? That’s probably snark, but just in case: I’m referring to her previous film “Selma”. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/4 "2018-03-28T10:13:20Z")
Perhaps this will serve to remind people that there is nothing special about being black or white or male or female or straight or gay or young or old or… What matters is the end result. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/5 "2018-03-28T11:10:54Z")
Why can’t it just be a crappy film? Why does (zOMG!) Inclusivity! have to play a contributing factor in its failure? Would the film be better with a less diverse cast? Moonlight = good! Wrinkle in Time = (ostensibly) bad! Why not leave it at that? I can think of any number of films that failed miserably which would in no way be improved by more/less diversity. Finally, why does virtually every single post OP makes have this faint but ever present stench of bigotry about it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/6 "2018-03-28T11:16:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Finally, why does virtually every single post OP makes have this faint but ever present stench of bigotry about it? Faint? What happened to your nose? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/7 "2018-03-28T11:27:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why can’t it just be a crappy film? Why does (zOMG!) Inclusivity! have to play a contributing factor in its failure? Would the film be better with a less diverse cast? > > Moonlight = good! > Wrinkle in Time = (ostensibly) bad! > > Why not leave it at that? > > I can think of any number of films that failed miserably which would in no way be improved by more/less diversity. > > Finally, why does virtually every single post OP makes have this faint but ever present stench of bigotry about it? So you think I love “Moonlight” but hate this movie because of its diversity? How would that make any sense? I did find that link funny, but it’s from the ONION, not Breitbart. The diversity was the ONLY thing good about WiT. But that’s not enough to save it when it is so bad otherwise, and it’s an insult to truly great filmmakers like Spike Lee and Barry Jenkins to reflexively rally around a piece of garbage like this, or even to temper one’s criticism. This is as bad as a Transformers movie, just with diversity and some well meaning, earnest, and incredibly simpleminded treacle stirred in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/8 "2018-03-28T11:33:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So you think I love “Moonlight” but hate this movie because of its diversity? How would that make any sense? I did find that link funny, but it’s from the ONION, not Breitbart. > > The diversity was the ONLY thing good about WiT. But that’s not enough to save it when it is so bad otherwise, and it’s an insult to truly great filmmakers like Spike Lee and Barry Jenkins to reflexively rally around a piece of garbage like this, or even to temper one’s criticism. This is as bad as a Transformers movie, just with diversity and some well meaning, earnest, and incredibly simpleminded treacle stirred in. Why not just rip the movie apart on it merits (or lack thereof) in Café Society? Why is this in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/9 "2018-03-28T11:45:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why not just rip the movie apart on it merits (or lack thereof) in Café Society? Why is this in the Pit? Because (1) I really HATE this movie like few others; and (2) I thought the Onion piece (and the truth it contains) was awesome—and I’m not sure if it would go over in CS. (Would it?) I did first look in CS for a thread, though, and all I found was one about the previews. I posted there first and asked about a thread for the movie: check my post history. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/10 "2018-03-28T12:08:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Relatedly: OMG, funny because true: > > [Negative Review Of ‘A Wrinkle In Time’ Peppered With Critic Assuring Readers He Still Totally Supports Diversity](https://entertainment.theonion.com/negative-review-of-a-wrinkle-in-time-peppered-with-cr-1823656342) That is pretty funny. Well, funnier than “White man thrilled at opportunity to rip on multiethnic kid movie directed by black woman.” ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/11 "2018-03-28T12:10:50Z")
You hate the type of movie it is, you hate the cliche that is part of the movie’s climax, and you hate the message it sends about love conquering all and believing in yourself- which, incidentally, is the exact message of the source material, so it’s not like the director pulled it out of her ass. Why, exactly, did you go see the movie in the first place? And do you have this level of rage-boner for the other versions of WiT, which were even MORE awful? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/12 "2018-03-28T12:15:45Z")
Is its diversity one of the things you HATE about it? Do you HATE the idea that panning this movie would imply you HATE diversity? Your OP is full of dancing coyness - if the movie sucks, just say the movie sucks. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/13 "2018-03-28T12:32:46Z")
The fact that this is in the Pit says it all. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > DuVernay experimentally found the answer to the question “Could a celebrated black female director make a big budget film in 2018 that is super into diversity and inclusive messaging, but is of such execrable cinematic quality that it still manages to get a negative score on Rotten Tomatoes?” **I honestly would have thought the answer was “no"…** The part in bold says more about your stupidity and prejudice than anything else. Look at you, advertising the fact that her race and gender influence your judgements about her work. But what takes the cake is the pretense that you assumed her race and gender would make her film good, not bad. Riiiight. Your post is the embodies the bias that non-white, non-male directors have to overcome. Instead of just saying “eh, the movie sucked to me” you have to politicize your critique by bring diversity and inclusion. I’m trying to figure out what does Moonlight and Black Panther have to do with this movie? They seem to have as much to do with each as Interstellar and Gone Girl do. Which is to say, nothing whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/14 "2018-03-28T12:34:00Z")
This is a decent self-pitting, in that it reveals once again the OP’s weird (and usually counterfactual, like that she “slandered LBJ”) ethnic obsessions. If black directors and filmmakers had it easy there’d be tons of them, and tons of them winning awards. Luckily, every time any of them make even the slightest error, or make the type of creative choices about historical events that most historical movies make, the OP is there to shit on them and proclaim that only PC-ness (or something) allows these directors to be praised, rather than just the possiblility that his tastes are different from other critics. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/15 "2018-03-28T13:04:52Z")
Lord help me I thought the “slandered LBJ” part was true enough… didn’t _Selma_ have LBJ doing a lot of things anti-MLK that were counter to the tenor of the things he did IRL? I haven’t seen it but that seemed to be the general assessment at the time… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/16 "2018-03-28T13:09:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Lord help me I thought the “slandered LBJ” part was true enough… didn’t _Selma_ have LBJ doing a lot of things anti-MLK that were counter to the tenor of the things he did IRL? I haven’t seen it but that seemed to be the general assessment at the time… It portrayed LBJ as having serious political concerns, as well as having a manipulative and somewhat malevolent FBI head, but ultimately did the right thing anyway. I think both of those things are entirely reasonable and probably true, even if not every single conversation in reality happened exactly as it did in the movie. This was discussed extensively in a CS thread about the movie. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/17 "2018-03-28T13:48:51Z")
Family movie. Rather, kids movie. Pretty well received by that demo as I understand. OP excepted, obvs. . ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/18 "2018-03-28T14:05:22Z")
> [@bobkitty](#): > > You hate the type of movie it is, you hate the cliche that is part of the movie’s climax, and you hate the message it sends about love conquering all and believing in yourself- which, incidentally, is the exact message of the source material, so it’s not like the director pulled it out of her ass. > > Why, exactly, did you go see the movie in the first place? And do you have this level of rage-boner for the other versions of WiT, which were even MORE awful? I went to see it, despite the bad Rotten Tomatoes score, because: (1) I have a MoviePass card, so there is zero marginal cost to see movies, and everything else that’s out is either stuff I’ve already seen or movies I have zero interest in (like “Tomb Raider”). (2) A feminist movie podcast I like called The Contenders did their latest episode on the movie; (3) An NPR writer I like named Linda Holmes LOVED the movie. So I was curious to see for myself. I have not seen any other versions of WiT, and I gave up on the book as a kid after a chapter or two. But as I said in CS a few minutes ago, the things that turned me off about the book were (at least in that early portion I read) nothing like the lameness of this movie. It was more that it was kind of dark and weird/offbeat in a way I didn’t like (sort of like how I felt about the movie “Harold and Maude” when I saw it as a teenager). I never would have expected that book I abandoned to become a movie that’s like a big budget version of something intellectually akin to Dora the Explorer. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is its diversity one of the things you HATE about it? Do you HATE the idea that panning this movie would imply you HATE diversity? Taking those questions in order: (1) No. In fact, this is as I said pretty much its only positive quality. (2) YES! I do hate that. That is exactly what bugs the shit out of me. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But what takes the cake is the pretense that you assumed her race and gender would make her film good, not bad. Riiiight. Ehhh…wot? I think you must have misread something, because I never said any such thing. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > counterfactual, like that she “slandered LBJ” > **[Opinion | The movie ‘Selma’ has a glaring flaw](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-movie-selma-has-a-glaring-historical-inaccuracy/2014/12/26/70ad3ea2-8aa4-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html?utm_term=.176ce84a4099)** > > An LBJ adviser says the relationship between MLK and the president is falsely presented. > [@](#): > > _Joseph A. Califano Jr. was President Lyndon Johnson’s top assistant for domestic affairs from 1965 to 1969._ > What’s wrong with Hollywood? > The makers of the new movie “Selma” apparently just couldn’t resist taking dramatic, trumped-up license with a true story that didn’t need any embellishment to work as a big-screen historical drama. As a result, the film falsely portrays President Lyndon B. Johnson as being at odds with Martin Luther King Jr. and even using the FBI to discredit him, as only reluctantly behind the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and as opposed to the Selma march itself. > In fact, Selma was LBJ’s idea, he considered the Voting Rights Act his greatest legislative achievement, he viewed King as an essential partner in getting it enacted — and he didn’t use the FBI to disparage him.[…] > For the truth about Johnson, the Voting Rights Act and Selma, listen to the tape of the LBJ-MLK telephone conversation and read my numerous reports to the White House, which have been on the LBJ Presidential Library Web site for years. > > All this material was publicly available to the producers, the writer of the screenplay and the director of this film. Why didn’t they use it? Did they feel no obligation to check the facts? Did they consider themselves free to fill the screen with falsehoods, immune from any responsibility to the dead, just because they thought it made for a better story? > **[Why You Should Care That 'Selma' Gets LBJ Wrong](https://time.com/3658593/selma-lbj-history/)** > > Even in the movies—and especially in this one—accuracy matters > [@](#): > > The film Selma—in wide release Jan. 9—tells one of the most dramatic stories in modern American history, of Martin Luther King Jr.’s successful crusade for voting rights in Alabama in 1965. It triggered a smaller drama of its own when former Lyndon Johnson aide Joseph Califano attacked its portrayal of his old boss in the Washington Post. The film is a well-produced and well-acted drama that will draw a lot of Oscar attention. In many respects—but not all—it was well-researched. Some have argued that the inaccuracies are not important to the purpose of the film, or that accuracy is beside the point when it comes to movies that aren’t documentaries. But Califano was right: its portrayal of Lyndon Johnson and his role in the passage of the Voting Rights Act could hardly be more wrong. And this is important not merely for the sake of fidelity to the past, but because of continuing implications for how we see our racial problems and how they could be solved. > Selma suffers as a piece of history, I would guess, because director Ava DuVernay and writer Paul Webb overcompensated for the flaws of movies like Mississippi Burning and Ghosts of Mississippi. Such movies have been justifiably criticized for exaggerating the role of whites compared to blacks in the Civil Rights movement, and for introducing black characters only to have them killed or terrorized. Selma stands this paradigm on its head. With only one exception—federal judge Frank Johnson—the white characters in Selma are either villains (including LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, George Wallace and Sheriff Clark of Selma), timid wimps, or victims (Unitarian minister James Reeb, who is misidentified at one point as a priest and talks like an Evangelical, and Detroit mother Viola Liuzzo, both of whom were killed by Alabama whites). Crucially, until its last few minutes, the film presents LBJ as the main obstacle to what King is trying to do. There was no shortage of real white villains in the Selma controversy, but LBJ was not one of them. This portrayal depends upon a complete misrepresentation not only of the facts, but also of specific conversations that King and Johnson had during this period. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/19 "2018-03-28T14:10:55Z")
My kids weren’t super impressed by it. They didn’t call it “the worst thing that has ever happened to me,” which is how my daughter described “Sherlock Gnomes,” but they didn’t seem thrilled. They enjoyed “Black Panther” a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332/20 "2018-03-28T14:13:49Z")
All the story problems the shithead of an OP has with this movie are basically there already in the glurgy source material, so I have no idea why the fuckstick is blaming DuVernay when L’Engle should get the lion’s share of that blame…idiot. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ava-duvernay-pulled-off-the-seemingly-impossible/811332.md?page=2)