# Availability and lethality of guns and body counts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469 "2018-02-24T16:03:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/41 "2018-02-27T01:27:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I read the (2005) article that the chart was based on. In addition, a moment of thought would show you that less guns doesn’t necessarily mean less suicides, since if this were true the US would be leading the world in per capita suicides, instead of being basically in the middle of the road. Japan, with one of the most restrictive gun regulations and a very low number of guns per capita is the world leader in suicides per capita, so there is something else going on. I read the 2005 article too, btw. Frankly, I think when a thoughtful and knowledgeable person like yourself brings up asian countries, I have got to arch an eyebrow. We both know that the number of guns aren’t the one and only factor in suicide rates. We both know that attitudes towards suicide in Japan is vastly different than in Western countries. So I guess I’ll just give up on this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/42 "2018-02-27T01:41:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I read the 2005 article too, btw. Frankly, I think when a thoughtful and knowledgeable person like yourself brings up asian countries, I have got to arch an eyebrow. We both know that the number of guns aren’t the one and only factor in suicide rates. We both know that attitudes towards suicide in Japan is vastly different than in Western countries. So I guess I’ll just give up on this conversation. Sure, again, I’m not disagreeing with that. The point, however, is that they still find a way to commit suicide even without the availability of guns…per capita suicides are higher in some European nations as well, even nations with a lot more gun control than we have. Before you give up, just tell me why you think that all the people who today commit suicide with a gun would not be able to do so or would not do so if there were no guns here in the US. Do you think all of them would be saved or some percentage of them would still be able to or would find a way to do so if there were no guns? If you really think it’s all, just explain to me why you think that. If it’s the latter, well…that’s what I’m saying. Where the bar would be is definitely a question that I don’t have an answer, but I just don’t see how all of them…all 22k or so…would just not commit suicide if there were no guns at all. If that were the case the US would go from the middle of the pack wrt suicides per capita to basically one of the lowest in the world, would go from over 40k suicides to a bit over 20k…with a population of 350+ million people. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/43 "2018-02-27T02:06:42Z")
No seriously, I’m done. We were talking about a study that compared American states by their gun ownership and suicide rates and you say “what about Japan?”. I am an imaginative person but I can’t come up with a remotely charitable motive for you. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/44 "2018-02-27T02:19:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Granted, it doesn’t follow, but with one caveat. If you take away the guns then people will find a way to kill…that’s a fact, since they already do this. No. Fake fact. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that there must have been situations where a person would have shot someone if they had a gun handy, but were prevented because they didn’t have a gun handy, or further, merely having the gun in close proximity egged them on to seriously think about shooting someone and then they went through with it. Anyone with common sense known this. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/45 "2018-02-27T02:31:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’ve lost a battleship to a galley in Civilization back in the day but I digress… Lemme guess: you were playing as Gandhi? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469/46 "2018-02-27T04:34:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think they believe (by and large) the statement/assertion, so I don’t think it’s a lie…that is different from being wrong. YMMV, but I try not to accuse others of lying when it’s probable they are just mistaken in their belief. No, they know it’s not true. Just toss a tennis ball at one and say “think fast!” I bet they don’t shoot it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/availability-and-lethality-of-guns-and-body-counts/809469.md?page=2)