# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/361 "2009-12-28T04:10:37Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Well, we were shown that Grace had been working with the Na’vi for years. She apparently had even run a school for the Na’vi children that had been shut down sometime before the events of the movie. So while she hadn’t been made a full member of the tribe like Jake was, they knew her and were somewhat accepting of her already, before Jake ever showed up. Fair enough. She did look hugely stupid in those red shorts or whatever she was wearing to distinguish her from the natives. I noticed earlier she’d been wearing a headband, which was apparently the “I’m the _girl_ avatar” mark. On a similar note, I did like the little joke when Jake started wearing tribe gear, and he’d tweak the native loincloth/thong that was riding up as he walked. Cute. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/362 "2009-12-28T04:31:01Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > One very small thing that really lost me: at what point did Grace (and Norm) gain acceptance by the tribe? Jake was reputedly the first and only human accepted by the tribe, and a big deal was made of this. It took him months of his time to do so. Somewhere late in the movie, the next thing I know the Grace avatar is running around the tribe area in an upscaled jogging outfit trying to help the tribe, and later the Na’vi shamen is trying her best to heal Grace and bind her to the tree-entity. Why would the tribe give two shakes for this “dream walker”? Did I miss a scene? **MostlyClueless** mentioned pictures on the fridge in post #5. They were shots of Grace with various school-age Na’vi, including a younger Neyteri, from when the school was open. When Grace is let back in, she’s greeted by some of the schoolchildren and says how they’ve grown. We don’t know what happened to cause the school to be shut down, but early on, when she’s complaining to $cienoBoy about her getting an untrained Jarhead to work with, Grace mentions the mercenaries using machine guns on the Na’vi. So obviously there was an altercation serious enough to shut down diplomatic relations. **olivesmarch4th** , I’m so glad you liked it! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/363 "2009-12-28T05:35:37Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I don’t see this movie being the generational shift that Star Wars (among other movies) was, no more so than seeing Wall-E in 3D. Its a cool movie, I found it hugely entertaining, but IMO not tectonic. It’s a generational shift in the size and scope of the film. It’s the first really big-budget full length 3D movie (not a cartoon). It’s success paves the way for more. With the advent of 3D TV’s now on the market it may very well pave the way for 3D computer games which, IMO, will have a bigger impact than the movies. It is possible to have true 3D graphics in computer games where you can’t in motion pictures. What you see in Avatar is a flat projection of 3D (for want of a better way of describing it). You see the depth of an image but there is no way to look around it because that requires interaction between each person and the image. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/364 "2009-12-28T05:58:51Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > **MostlyClueless** mentioned pictures on the fridge in post #5. They were shots of Grace with various school-age Na’vi, including a younger Neyteri, from when the school was open. When Grace is let back in, she’s greeted by some of the schoolchildren and says how they’ve grown. > > We don’t know what happened to cause the school to be shut down, but early on, when she’s complaining to $cienoBoy about her getting an untrained Jarhead to work with, Grace mentions the mercenaries using machine guns on the Na’vi. So obviously there was an altercation serious enough to shut down diplomatic relations. Ah, good points. I remember the photos but not the context. I thought Grace’s remarks about machine-gunning the natives was simply running down the jarheads (from an egghead 🙂 ), not referencing an actual incident. Your framing does help explain the native’s “acceptance” of Grace, Norm, etc. I guess when Jake first started avatar-ing, Grace and friends couldn’t just vouch for him to the Na’vi because they didn’t know Jake very well. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/365 "2009-12-28T06:08:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a generational shift in the size and scope of the film. It’s the first really big-budget full length 3D movie (not a cartoon). It’s success paves the way for more. Sure, it paves the way for more 3D movies. But is it seminal, or just a milestone on the way? I tend toward the latter view. > [@](#): > > With the advent of 3D TV’s now on the market I think there’s a standards war to be waged first before we’ll see 3D TV broadcasts. Hell, most people get cable television in SD at this point. With Blu-ray’s spotty penetration, I’m a skeptic on next-gen 3D home video showing up in the near term. > [@](#): > > it may very well pave the way for 3D computer games which, IMO, will have a bigger impact than the movies. It is possible to have true 3D graphics in computer games where you can’t in motion pictures. What you see in Avatar is a flat projection of 3D (for want of a better way of describing it). You see the depth of an image but there is no way to look around it because that requires interaction between each person and the image. I agree this would be very cool, and probably more imminent than home broadcast 3D video. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/366 "2009-12-28T06:21:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > :dubious: Gee, I wonder what might have plausibly motivated her outright mutiny, _just as she was ordered to open fire on a village of fleeing natives_? I’m pretty sure that would be a breaking point for lots of people. So why did none of the of the other marines (or whatever military they were supposed to be) show a hint of mutiny? Indeed, in and before the final battle they still all seemed thoroughly gung-ho. The point is, what made Trudy different from all the other military? It is a crucial plot point (no final battle without her) and it would not have been hard to tell a story about it: for instance, show her bonding with Sully or the scientists and coming to understand their feeling for the Navi at some point. We got nothing like that. I am wondering if there is a scene on a cutting room floor somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/367 "2009-12-28T06:34:32Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The most glaring plot hole, for me, concerned Trudy, the helicopter pilot. Her mutiny, first of all disobeying the order to fire on the tree, and then breaking the others out of the brig, came out of nowhere. OK, she had ferried the Sully and the scientists into the jungle, so she had more contact with them than the other marines did, but we were shown nothing that would plausibly have motivated her outright mutiny. > > […]The point is, what made Trudy different from all the other military? It is a crucial plot point (no final battle without her) and it would not have been hard to tell a story about it: for instance, show her bonding with Sully or the scientists and coming to understand their feeling for the Navi at some point. We got nothing like that. I am wondering if there is a scene on a cutting room floor somewhere. Replying late by mashing together your original post and this one – sorry, huge thread! I agree with you. Trudy had been essentially a bus driver for the scientists and no more at the point she mutinied. She said “I didn’t sign up for this shit” (or close to that) and aborted. I don’t see how she remained autonomous after that act, and able to break out the science team or try to turn things around in the final attack. More importantly, I also don’t see a reason she would try to do so. We’re apparently supposed to be sympathetic to her, but she didn’t even take off the aviator specs until she did the jailbreak. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/368 "2009-12-28T06:48:45Z")
We don’t know that she was the only employee to rebel, just as we don’t know for sure that she wasn’t. We weren’t shown and no other references were made. I would guess that she wasn’t. It doesn’t matter though. The difference between her and the other hired guns/employees that were all gung-ho and fired willingly is that she had a conscience and an idea of what her real duties were: ferry equipment and people, and protect them from predators, not kill the natives randomly and for no reason, and destroy their home and sacred places. Amazing that it’s considered a plot hole that a character would have a conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/369 "2009-12-28T06:58:17Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > So why did none of the of the other marines (or whatever military they were supposed to be) show a hint of mutiny? Indeed, in and before the final battle they still all seemed thoroughly gung-ho. > > The point is, what made Trudy different from all the other military? It is a crucial plot point (no final battle without her) and it would not have been hard to tell a story about it: for instance, show her bonding with Sully or the scientists and coming to understand their feeling for the Navi at some point. We got nothing like that. I am wondering if there is a scene on a cutting room floor somewhere. Well, she seemed to be the only pilot assigned to ferrying the science team around. The other pilots probably spent the vast majority of their time ferrying supplies and scouting the mining operation. Basically her familiarity with the science team and hearing them talk about the Na’vi, especially while sequestered with them at the remote facility, would very likely have contributed to her mutiny. The other pilots bought the company line that they were savaged and animals out to kill them because they were never told anything else and never saw evidence to contradict it, Trudy saw numerous examples that they were much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/370 "2009-12-28T07:14:35Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Amazing that it’s considered a plot hole that a character would have a conscience. Its a plot hole because I was supposed to care (because some other characters also did) when she failed and died. I didn’t, really. I barely knew who she was. Some background about her might have fixed this. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/371 "2009-12-28T07:23:27Z")
It’s a plot hole that you didn’t care about a character dying? It certainly doesn’t matter that you didn’t care, but I’ve never heard that kind of thing described as a “plot hole” before. Besides, they barely showed anyone mourning her death. Neytiri’s father got more tears and anguish shown than Trudy. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/372 "2009-12-28T07:43:51Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > It’s a plot hole that you didn’t care about a character dying? She wasn’t a character, she was a placard. The filmmakers could have fleshed her out without much effort. Really, is this worth quibbling over? Were all the characters perfectly fleshed out for you? Each one? No complaints? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/373 "2009-12-28T07:48:29Z")
Michelle Rodriguez is a black hole of suck anyway. The less time dedicated to her the better. There aren’t many actors that distract me from a movie or TV show to think about how much they suck, but she’s one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/374 "2009-12-28T07:51:50Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > She wasn’t a character, she was a placard. The filmmakers could have fleshed her out without much effort. I don’t think that was the main point of the post you responded to… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/375 "2009-12-28T07:58:25Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > I don’t think that was the main point of the post you responded to… Really? I thought **njtt** ’s issue was that we couldn’t understand Trudy’s motives given what we had been shown of her, and that this was a flaw in the film. I agree with that. It didn’t ruin the film for me, far from it, but it was a definite wart. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/376 "2009-12-28T08:00:12Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Really? I thought **njtt** ’s issue was that we couldn’t understand Trudy’s motives given what we had been shown of her, and that this was a flaw in the film. I agree with that. It didn’t ruin the film for me, far from it, but it was a definite wart. In that specific post, Equipoise’s primary issue seemed to be your classification of it as a “plot hole.” ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/377 "2009-12-28T08:37:38Z")
Both, really. I don’t think it’s a plot hole that we aren’t specifically told each character’s motivations. That could make the movie 6 hours long. What motivated Grace? What motivated $cienoBoy? What motivated the tall doofy guy? What motivated the hard-ass? Why weren’t we shown each of their backstories and specific events that give their characters depth and makes us understand every single thing they’re thinking and why they’re doing what they’re doing? Because the main characters are Jakesully and Neytiri, and we know what motivated them and that’s all that really matters. Plus I don’t think it’s a “plot hole” that someone doesn’t like a character or doesn’t care about them dying. That’s just each to their own. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/378 "2009-12-28T08:45:27Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Sure, it paves the way for more 3D movies. But is it seminal, or just a milestone on the way? I tend toward the latter view. It’s a milestone on the way. It’s a 3D version of Independence Day (1996) that will make money in spite of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/379 "2009-12-28T08:48:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Michelle Rodriguez is a black hole of suck anyway. She’s the 7-of-9 of the movie required for 12 year old boys. That and they needed her breasts to calibrate the 3D cameras. I was desperate for her to say “lock-and-load” but alas… The movie would be lost without her. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/380 "2009-12-28T08:55:37Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Both, really. I don’t think it’s a plot hole that we aren’t specifically told each character’s motivations. That could make the movie 6 hours long. What motivated Grace? What motivated $cienoBoy? What motivated the tall doofy guy? What motivated the hard-ass? Why weren’t we shown each of their backstories and specific events that give their characters depth and makes us understand every single thing they’re thinking and why they’re doing what they’re doing? Yes, you’re right: nobody gives a hoot about where the characters went to elementary school. The important thing to us as movie watchers were why the other or “main” characters cared about that character. We’re invested in the main characters, so what they care about, we care about. I saw little reason for Jake or anyone to care about (or even remember) Trudy. Fair enough? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=20)