# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/441 "2010-01-01T16:06:46Z")
1. was not a cop-out it was the entire crux of the film. The entire point is that the transfer of the consciousness from one body to another. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/442 "2010-01-01T16:26:07Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > 1. Finally, I hated that once again the indigenous people were saved by the noble white American embracing their culture and leading them to battle against his own savage people. Last Samurai anyone? Just once I’d like to see the American take a backseat to the natives, who use their own craftiness and inside knowledge to kick some ass. You can’t see any legitimate reasons why a trained soldier familiar with the enemy, their technology and all its weaknesses might have something to offer a bunch of primitive hunters? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/443 "2010-01-01T16:49:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why assume that? No need to assume - they make it quite clear in the supplementary canon material ([Pandorapedia](http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/isv_venture_star)) that it’s _not_ FTL. 1.5G accelaration to 0.7c, cruise, then decel. > [@mswas](#): > > As I understand it the Unobtainium is necessary for antimatter drives. Perhaps the action in Avatar allows for the action in Aliens. It’s necessary for the antimatter drives that they’re \*already \*using on the ships that go to Pandora (and other systems, I assume, and also for energy back on Earth). No need to postulate anything to do with the Alien series, it seems like a sideline Cameron has dropped (plus, _AvP_ has royally fucked up the timeline there already). Also, _Alien_ happens in 2123, _Aliens_ in 2179 (per various materials like the novels and DVD extras) - notice how that brackets the 2154 of _Avatar_? Different universes. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/444 "2010-01-01T18:44:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You can’t see any legitimate reasons why a trained soldier familiar with the enemy, their technology and all its weaknesses might have something to offer a bunch of primitive hunters? Certainly they didn’t need Sully’s insider information to figure out that they should unite with the other Pandoran tribes to defeat a common enemy. Yet, they seemed paralyzed to do anything except wail and pray until Sully showed up with his big red dragon. With his background, of course Sully had something to offer the Pandorans, as an advisor or tactician. I take issue with them accepting him as their _leader,_ which is the same issue I had with the Last Samurai. I mean, really, how often in history has an outsider, not to mention a member of an enemy tribe, come in and assumed the role of President/Czar/Chief over an indigenous people, not by force, but by mutual trust? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/445 "2010-01-01T19:22:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The entire point is that the transfer of the consciousness from one body to another. Yes, but it was always a one-way street, or the transfer of consciousness from a host body to a parasitic avatar. Upon the unconscious state or death of the host, the avatar ceased to function, yet the host could function perfectly normal absent the avatar. Even had the avatar experienced a physical death, the host could have survived without him. Those were the rules of the game: Cameron changed the rules of this game when it suited the love story. Nitpick: The truth of the lore is that Jake himself was never in any danger when his avatar got lost in the jungle. The scientists didn’t need to spend precious daylight searching for him. They could have simply roused Jake from his state of subconsciousness, asked him where his avatar was in the jungle, and used that information to pinpoint his location so that they could rescue him. They certainly wouldn’t have allowed his avatar to fend for itself all night, especially given the expense and time involved in creating one. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/446 "2010-01-01T19:36:13Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Nitpick: The truth of the lore is that Jake himself was never in any danger when his avatar got lost in the jungle. The scientists didn’t need to spend precious daylight searching for him. They could have simply roused Jake from his state of subconsciousness, asked him where his avatar was in the jungle, and used that information to pinpoint his location so that they could rescue him. They certainly wouldn’t have allowed his avatar to fend for itself all night, especially given the expense and time involved in creating one. It’s true that Jake himself wasn’t in any danger (so far as we know…maybe it’s like the Matrix? Avatar dies, you die? I digress…) however, I doubt they’d be able to “pinpoint” Jake in a jungle that he has no idea his way around. How the heck would he even describe it? “Yeah, I, uh, made a left at a tree, right at another, and stopped by some dirt.” As such, they had to have Jake’s avatar fend for itself, lest it be destroyed by the night creatures, which would be very bad provided the “expense” and “time” points you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/447 "2010-01-01T20:19:27Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > however, I doubt they’d be able to “pinpoint” Jake in a jungle that he has no idea his way around. How the heck would he even describe it? “Yeah, I, uh, made a left at a tree, right at another, and stopped by some dirt.” “I fell down a huge waterfall.” would have been a decent start. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/448 "2010-01-01T20:21:12Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It’s true that Jake himself wasn’t in any danger (so far as we know…maybe it’s like the Matrix? Avatar dies, you die? I digress…) I believe we saw one of his fellow Avatarees exit from a pod, all shaken up, after his Avatar was killed in battle. However, everything went so fast that I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/449 "2010-01-01T20:29:25Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Certainly they didn’t need Sully’s insider information to figure out that they should unite with the other Pandoran tribes to defeat a common enemy. Yet, they seemed paralyzed to do anything except wail and pray until Sully showed up with his big red dragon. Actually they did: they’d just seen what happens when the humans take off the kid gloves, and it gave no indication that they _could_ be beaten. Their will was broken. > [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It’s true that Jake himself wasn’t in any danger (so far as we know…maybe it’s like the Matrix? Avatar dies, you die? I digress…) It’s not - the other guy’s avatar got killed in battle and he was fine, after he got over the shock. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/450 "2010-01-01T21:33:30Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > “I fell down a huge waterfall.” would have been a decent start. 🙂 Well yeah, but he didn’t know he was going to be pulled out, so he had to keep moving to keep the Avatar safe. Which had they pulled him out, it wouldn’t be, particularly at night when the others gave up on trying to find him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/451 "2010-01-02T00:58:01Z")
I just saw it. I enjoyed it for what it was, visually stunning, entertaining and transporting. The story was formulaic, sure, but I don’t get why anybody is complaining about that. What were you expecting? What CGI extravaganzas _aren’t_ predictable? What action movies aren’t predictable? What superhero movies aren’t predictable? There was a lot of money sunk into this thing, and in order to be profitable, the story had to be familiar and accessible. When you’re driving this big of a truck, it’s not the time to start doing donuts or driving offroad. You bring it home safe, and in one piece. If you want twisty-turny plots, what the fuck are you going to see _Avatar_ for? Trying make the characters more ambiguous or “deep” would have just made the movie boring as shit. Are the characters in LOTR ambiguous, or nuanced or multifaceted, or deep? Fuck no, they’re the definition of paper thin, one dimensional, “good/evil” archetypes, but I don’t see the fanboys bitching about that. Observing that those tropes exist in _Avatar_ is not insightful or clever, it’s just arch, and obvious and silly. It’s like being the guy who points out that superheroes can’t really have superpowers. Duh. That’s not the point. Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. If you want complex human drama, watch _General Hospital_. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/452 "2010-01-02T01:03:49Z")
Holy crap. Diogenes just posted something that I just about completely agree with! Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/453 "2010-01-02T01:09:29Z")
I went to see it in 3D last night and loved the effects- they really were, I felt, integral to the film. Little touches like the photographs actually being holographic and the computer screens really impressed me. Shame about the plot, though. Full of tree-hugging New-Agey crap, predictable, and far too long, and with far too many plot holes. Face it, if unobtanium is both insanely valuable and necessary to space travel, then RDA (or someone else) are going to come back with bioweapons or orbital cannons or something anyway. The best thing the Navi can do is negotiate mining rights with them, because if a round trip takes a decade then the shareholders on Earth aren’t going to hear about a mysterious illness killing off the Navi, or an industrial accident that pretty much wipes out any nearby pockets for resistance until well after it’s happened and all they can do is collect their dividends. In summary, I thought it was like a mixture of _Dances with Wolves_ and _Halo_, and just a dash of _Aliens_ thrown in. Outstanding and groundbreaking visuals, but a trite, thin, and predictable plot. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/454 "2010-01-02T05:24:03Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Full of tree-hugging New-Agey crap, It’s a Fantastic Aesop. Just accept the fact that in a setting where the humanoids can enter a mental link with the animals or the tree-based hive-mind, the tree-hugging New-Agey crap might have a logical basis, and ignore anyone that assumes it would have equal legitimacy elsewhere. > [@](#): > > and with far too many plot holes. Face it, if unobtanium is both insanely valuable and necessary to space travel, then RDA (or someone else) are going to come back with bioweapons or orbital cannons or something anyway. _That is not a plot hole._ At the absolute worst, that’s Sully’s actions betraying the fact that his military experience and training were at the tactical and not the strategic level. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/455 "2010-01-02T05:49:27Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I went to see it in 3D last night and loved the effects- they really were, I felt, integral to the film. Little touches like the photographs actually being holographic and the computer screens really impressed me. > > Shame about the plot, though. Full of tree-hugging New-Agey crap, predictable, and far too long, and with far too many plot holes. Face it, if unobtanium is both insanely valuable and necessary to space travel, then RDA (or someone else) are going to come back with bioweapons or orbital cannons or something anyway. The best thing the Navi can do is negotiate mining rights with them, because if a round trip takes a decade then the shareholders on Earth aren’t going to hear about a mysterious illness killing off the Navi, or an industrial accident that pretty much wipes out any nearby pockets for resistance until well after it’s happened and all they can do is collect their dividends. > > In summary, I thought it was like a mixture of _Dances with Wolves_ and _Halo_, and just a dash of _Aliens_ thrown in. Outstanding and groundbreaking visuals, but a trite, thin, and predictable plot. You appear to not understand the film. The company was a company. It had the mining rights. It is there because the Earth government allowed it to be there. And the Earth government didn’t want genocide. It specifically mandated that outreach efforts had to be made. What in the film would make you think that the Earth government has the political will to commit genocide on the only other sapient race in the universe? It’s awfully silly to assume that any government would take the public relations ass-fucking that would entail. I’m sure people will want it to happen, but you’re basing your objection on a very, very simplistic view. In your opinion, do you think that the US will fuel-air bomb Saudi Arabia for its oil? Why don’t we? If your logic held true, we’d have no problem at all doing that. Also, the Na’vi aren’t tree huggers in any negative way. Their sense of interconnectedness with nature is actually tangible. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/456 "2010-01-02T10:19:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You appear to not understand the film. There’s not a lot of plot in that film to understand. I understood it. I just didn’t like the message or the plot. > [@](#): > > What in the film would make you think that the Earth government has the political will to commit genocide on the only other sapient race in the universe? Besides the “destroying their homes and converting a shuttle to a bomber to level their most sacred site?” I’d say an orbital strike to make the same point isn’t that great a leap of faith. Go and read up on the United Fruit Company or the East India Company and you’ll see what I mean. > [@](#): > > In your opinion, do you think that the US will fuel-air bomb Saudi Arabia for its oil? Why don’t we? If your logic held true, we’d have no problem at all doing that. 1. There are other places besides Saudi Arabia to obtain oil from. 2. The Saudi Arabians are quite happy to trade their oil with the US. 3. The Saudis are civilised people who can be negotiated with through normal diplomatic channels. 4.You’d incur the wrath of every Islamic person on the planet. There’s a lot of them and they have access to more or less the same technology as the US. In short, completely unlike the situation in _Avatar_. > [@](#): > > Also, the Na’vi aren’t tree huggers in any negative way. Their sense of interconnectedness with nature is actually tangible. Even so, the only way Cameron could have made it any clearer who the Bad Guys were would have been to have them all wearing black cowboy hats and powering their spaceships with orphaned puppies. The film’s message was very clear: Tree Hugging And Primitive Tribalism= Good, Modern Civilisation, Industry, & Science= Bad. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/457 "2010-01-02T10:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Besides the “destroying their homes and converting a shuttle to a bomber to level their most sacred site?” I’d say an orbital strike to make the same point isn’t that great a leap of faith. Go and read up on the United Fruit Company or the East India Company and you’ll see what I mean. But they essentially went rogue to do this - they’re not shown getting approval from Earth or even their corporate HQ, it’s shown as a desperate act. We’re not even sure if there’s FTL communication. But by the time the news reaches Earth, there will be full political implications and the corporation will have to answer for its actions and that would affect any potential second expedition to Pandora. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/458 "2010-01-02T10:34:14Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > There’s not a lot of plot in that film to understand. I understood it. I just didn’t like the message or the plot. Not liking something doesn’t make it a plot hole. > [@](#): > > Besides the “destroying their homes and converting a shuttle to a bomber to level their most sacred site?” I’d say an orbital strike to make the same point isn’t that great a leap of faith. Go and read up on the United Fruit Company or the East India Company and you’ll see what I mean. You still seem to not get it. The company was the ones doing the bombing. They are 8 years away from any contact with Earth (radio, I know the STL ships took 6 years each way) and they decided to take it up a notch, since they had the massing of the Na’vi soldiers as a pretense. I say it again, you don’t understand modern society if you think an educated, informed populace is going to let humanity fuel-air bomb a society into oblivion. The guys who tried to blow up the holy site were corporate soldiers, not government people. It isn’t likely that a government is going to let you commit genocide. There simply isn’t the political will to do it by force. Remember, the schools and avatars are requirements of the government. They want to appear to be the good guys. The corporate armies didn’t have cruise missiles, they had defensive weapons. To the extent that they had to jury-rig a bomb. > [@](#): > > 1. There are other places besides Saudi Arabia to obtain oil from. > 2. The Saudi Arabians are quite happy to trade their oil with the US. > 3. The Saudis are civilised people who can be negotiated with through normal diplomatic channels. > 4.You’d incur the wrath of every Islamic person on the planet. There’s a lot of them and they have access to more or less the same technology as the US. 1. There were other places on the planet other than Home Tree. 2. The Na’vi didn’t really care if you mined away from them. 3. The Na’vi didn’t really care if you mined away from them. 4. Bombing the Na’vi would incur the wrath of every civilized person on Earth. You’re completely wrong if you think a modern society is going to have the political will to commit genocide on the one other sapient race in the universe. > [@](#): > > In short, completely unlike the situation in _Avatar_. In short it’s just like it. Except instead of trading for Unobtanium the Na’vi let you have it for free, if you mine it away from them. > [@](#): > > Even so, the only way Cameron could have made it any clearer who the Bad Guys were would have been to have them all wearing black cowboy hats and powering their spaceships with orphaned puppies. The film’s message was very clear: Tree Hugging And Primitive Tribalism= Good, Modern Civilisation, Industry, & Science= Bad. Civilization wasn’t bad, unchecked profit at the expense of morals was bad. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/459 "2010-01-02T10:36:42Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The film’s message was very clear: Tree Hugging And Primitive Tribalism= Good, Modern Civilisation, Industry, & Science= Bad. Oh my god, that’s what you got out of the movie? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/460 "2010-01-02T10:37:55Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > But they essentially went rogue to do this - they’re not shown getting approval from Earth or even their corporate HQ, it’s shown as a desperate act. We’re not even sure if there’s FTL communication. But by the time the news reaches Earth, there will be full political implications and the corporation will have to answer for its actions and that would affect any potential second expedition to Pandora. The thing is that we fairly quickly end up in “Assuming facts not in evidence” territory pretty quickly with this film. How important is this unobtanium stuff? Is it available anywhere else in the Galaxy? Are there other mining corporations who might want the concession? How powerful is RDA? They might be the 22nd century version of The East India Company and more or less free to do whatever they like on Pandora, for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=24)