# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/461 "2010-01-02T10:49:25Z")
I thought it was pretty clear that they _weren’t_ free to do what they liked. They were forced to work with the scientists on the avatar program, for instance. If they were free to do what they liked, they would have destroyed Hometree much sooner, and not given a rat’s ass about trying to negotiate with the Na’vi or then, get them to move. You could see Public Opinion and Consequences hanging over $cienoBoy’s head until finally, he just didn’t give a shit anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/462 "2010-01-02T10:51:15Z")
True, but since by the time word gets back to Earth of what’s happened you know it’s going to have been twisted into “The Natives attacked us for no reason!” and anyone who knows otherwise is either dead, still on Pandora, or has a very good reason to keep quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/463 "2010-01-02T10:55:48Z")
The truth always gets out. Maybe not right away, but sooner or later. You think the corporation would be able to keep every single scientist quiet? The scientists saw it all develop and happen and were not happy about it. Is the corporation SO powerful that they can buy/threaten the silence of every single one? If they were so powerful they would have dumped the scientists months or years earlier instead of letting them work almost until the very end. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/464 "2010-01-02T11:02:25Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing is that we fairly quickly end up in “Assuming facts not in evidence” territory pretty quickly with this film. How important is this unobtanium stuff? Is it available anywhere else in the Galaxy? Are there other mining corporations who might want the concession? How powerful is RDA? They might be the 22nd century version of The East India Company and more or less free to do whatever they like on Pandora, for example. Well it certainly leaves room for sequels to explore this territory without it being a plot hole. I mean - is anything we’ve seen incompatable with the idea that there’s no instantaneous communication back on Earth and by the time the message got back, the corporation was in deep shit for what they’d done? That’s a perfectly plausible way to explain it without invalidating or contradicting any part of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/465 "2010-01-02T15:19:53Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Oh my god, that’s what you got out of the movie? Wow. IT was a fun movie, some decent sci fi, but they did rather beat us over the head with “Indians good, Cowboys bad”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/466 "2010-01-02T15:28:35Z")
I’m not even sure that was the intent. I mean - obviously you could read it that way - but the movie is about immersion. We’re supposed to sympathize with Jake being immersed in this new and wondrous world, and we need to understand why it is that he’d turn against his own people and join with the others. Sure, they could’ve shown us that their culture was horrible in some ways and had big flaws - but then that takes away some of the wonder and also takes away from us rooting for the protagonist to go native, to be there with him making that decision. Not all films have to be nuanced character pieces that show that things aren’t always black and white. It would’ve taken away from the experience of this movie to have that in it, to introduce ambiguity or characters that were hard to sympathize with. The movie isn’t meant to be a thought provoking movie that inspires endless debate over nuances - it’s supposed to be an experience that immerses us in cinema in a way that wasn’t previously possible. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/467 "2010-01-02T16:35:06Z")
Bottomline: this was the most visually impressive movie ever. It overwhelmed Last of the Mohicans, the opening of 2001, and everything else. Other comments (sorry not to acknowledge other posters’ fine observations, the thread’s just too long): I’d be surprised if there wan’t some money paid to Poul Anderson’s estate. “Call Me Joe” was the primary source for the avatar goes native plotline. It’s funny which things bother viewers. The floating mountains were patently absurd, but less objectionable than the kissing. Personally I found Unobtainium unbothering. It’s a common tech term that transitioned to a “real” substance. Hated the forest people executing a direct cavalry charge into automatic weapon fire. Hey, have there been any Thunder Agents comparisons yet? (Mind transfers to synthetic blue bodies.) Some poster’s liked Sully’s thrill at waking up in a functioning body; it made me pissed. The guy’s a marine, disciplined to the core, who has already been told he’s barely suitable for avatar duty… so he jumps up, ignores multiple authorities, trashes a valuable (possibly irreplaceable) lab, and jeopardizes his chances of ever using the avatar body again just so he can run around for a while. I liked the plot device that let Sully end up as an avatar even though he wasn’t qualified (dead twin.) Hey how about sleep? Was that explained? The avatar runs around all day, and then the marine stays up all night giving reports and eating. Does the human not need REM? Finally, I didn’t like the 3D. To me it seemed like I was watching the film through tinted glasses (heh). It might have been due to the particular theater, but the movie’s brightness was lower than 2D films. I’ll take pure whites over 3D. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/468 "2010-01-02T18:27:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > fuel-air bomb Side question: What, exactly, does the above mean? I’ve seen the term used several times in this thread, but I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered it anywhere else. It’s the “fuel-air” bit that’s puzzling me (obviously I understand the “bomb” part 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/469 "2010-01-02T18:39:18Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Side question: What, exactly, does the above mean? I’ve seen the term used several times in this thread, but I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered it anywhere else. It’s the “fuel-air” bit that’s puzzling me (obviously I understand the “bomb” part 😃 ) You vaporize a fuel, say aviation gasoline and touch it off. It’s really, really, messy. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/470 "2010-01-02T18:42:10Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hey how about sleep? Was that explained? The avatar runs around all day, and then the marine stays up all night giving reports and eating. Does the human not need REM? Not quite - once Sully disconnected from the Avatar he would go to bed shortly after. There was a scene when Grace was telling him to make a log entry while it was fresh and he was asking if he could do it in the morning because he was desperate for some sleep. Going to sleep as an avatar was essentially just “docking” it. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/471 "2010-01-02T18:43:02Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hey how about sleep? Was that explained? The avatar runs around all day, and then the marine stays up all night giving reports and eating. Does the human not need REM? Presumably, he would sleep after (or before) eating and the reports. He even says at one point something like “I’m not getting much sleep, living two lives.” ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/472 "2010-01-02T19:25:53Z")
\>Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. Science fiction isnt fantasy. You cant just say “A wizard did that with magic!” Sure, it happens often enough in movies and most sci-fi isnt very hard, but that doesnt mean people arent entitled to their complaints, especially when characters come off as cartoony, even by Hollywood standards. I think a lot of the fun in sci-fi is discussing it and seeing what people thought was realistic and wasnt. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/473 "2010-01-02T19:46:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You vaporize a fuel, say aviation gasoline and touch it off. It’s really, really, messy. To explain in mechanically, a full can of gas is less explosive than an empty can with fumes in it. If you take the full can, blow it apart so it mixes with large amounts of oxygen (the other necessary ingredient) then you make full use of the gasoline inside the can. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/474 "2010-01-02T20:49:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You vaporize a fuel, say aviation gasoline and touch it off. It’s really, really, messy. > [@Magiver](#): > > To explain in mechanically, a full can of gas is less explosive than an empty can with fumes in it. If you take the full can, blow it apart so it mixes with large amounts of oxygen (the other necessary ingredient) then you make full use of the gasoline inside the can. Thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/475 "2010-01-02T21:17:36Z")
It was Terrans vs. Night Elves. It was neat following our hero from being a noob earning his first mount, and the part where he upgraded his flying mount was awesome. The floating mountains were like Outland, so nothing too unusual there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/476 "2010-01-02T22:03:39Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > It was Terrans vs. Night Elves. It was neat following our hero from being a noob earning his first mount, and the part where he upgraded his flying mount was awesome. The floating mountains were like Outland, so nothing too unusual there. LOL Win! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/477 "2010-01-02T22:04:56Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > \>Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. > > Science fiction isnt fantasy. You cant just say “A wizard did that with magic!” Sure, it happens often enough in movies and most sci-fi isnt very hard, but that doesnt mean people arent entitled to their complaints, especially when characters come off as cartoony, even by Hollywood standards. I think a lot of the fun in sci-fi is discussing it and seeing what people thought was realistic and wasnt. Science Fiction is no less cartoony than fantasy, and there is no reason to believe either should have a different level of sophistication. They are the same genre. Just replace wizard with Scientist and it’s Sci Fi. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/478 "2010-01-02T22:31:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just saw it. I enjoyed it for what it was, visually stunning, entertaining and transporting. The story was formulaic, sure, but I don’t get why anybody is complaining about that. What were you expecting? What CGI extravaganzas _aren’t_ predictable? What action movies aren’t predictable? What superhero movies aren’t predictable? > > There was a lot of money sunk into this thing, and in order to be profitable, the story had to be familiar and accessible. When you’re driving this big of a truck, it’s not the time to start doing donuts or driving offroad. You bring it home safe, and in one piece. If you want twisty-turny plots, what the fuck are you going to see _Avatar_ for? > Trying make the characters more ambiguous or “deep” would have just made the movie boring as shit. Are the characters in LOTR ambiguous, or nuanced or multifaceted, or deep? Fuck no, they’re the definition of paper thin, one dimensional, “good/evil” archetypes, but I don’t see the fanboys bitching about that. Observing that those tropes exist in _Avatar_ is not insightful or clever, it’s just arch, and obvious and silly. It’s like being the guy who points out that superheroes can’t really have superpowers. Duh. That’s not the point. Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. If you want complex human drama, watch _General Hospital_. A simple fantasy ploy can be done well, and it can be done badly. The complaint generally made about _Avatar_ isn’t simply that it is not “complex”, but rather that the simple, trope-laden plot is groan-worthy, taking one out of the suspension of disbelief, and its nods at contemporary relevance make this worse not better. It isn’t any excuse to say that all fantasies are light like that. They may be light on plot, but even your most basic superhero adaptation can be _done well_ - think of the recent portrayal of the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/479 "2010-01-02T22:34:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The complaint generally made about _Avatar_ isn’t simply that it is not “complex”, but rather that the simple, trope-laden plot is groan-worthy, taking one out of the suspension of disbelief, and its nods at contemporary relevance make this worse not better. That’s obviously not true for millions of people, so there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/480 "2010-01-02T22:44:12Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > That’s obviously not true for millions of people, so there you have it. By that measure, his previous movie - _Titanic_ - was _even better_! 😃 Note that upthread I said I liked it for the visual experience. I predict it will make a ton of money first-run at the theatres, but have less staying power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=25)