# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/481 "2010-01-02T23:01:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > A simple fantasy ploy can be done well, and it can be done badly. The complaint generally made about _Avatar_ isn’t simply that it is not “complex”, but rather that the simple, trope-laden plot is groan-worthy, taking one out of the suspension of disbelief, and its nods at contemporary relevance make this worse not better. I saw no “groan worthy” tropes in this movie, unless “genocide is bad” is groan-worthy. The “tree-hugging” accusations are off the mark (not that there would be anything wrong with that anyway) because this is not a scenario involving any kind of mysticism, or naive, empty ideology, but an actual, objectively verifiable, interconnected intelligence within an entire ecosystem. It’s not symbolic, it’s literal. The planet literally has one gigantic superbrain. What’s wrong with that as a premise? > [@](#): > > It isn’t any excuse to say that all fantasies are light like that. They may be light on plot, but even your most basic superhero adaptation can be _done well_ - think of the recent portrayal of the Joker. The Joker isn’t an evil archetype? The Joker isn’t broad? The Joker is realistic? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/482 "2010-01-02T23:03:46Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > \>Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. > > Science fiction isnt fantasy. You cant just say “A wizard did that with magic!” Sure, it happens often enough in movies and most sci-fi isnt very hard, but that doesnt mean people arent entitled to their complaints, especially when characters come off as cartoony, even by Hollywood standards. I think a lot of the fun in sci-fi is discussing it and seeing what people thought was realistic and wasnt. I disagree that Science Fiction isn’t a kind of fantasy. Roddenberry’s vision of the future, for instance, is absolutely fantasy, and it has more than its share of magic in it (“warp speed,” “transporters,” etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/483 "2010-01-02T23:11:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I saw no “groan worthy” tropes in this movie, unless “genocide is bad” is groan-worthy. The “tree-hugging” accusations are off the mark (not that there would be anything wrong with that anyway) because this is not a scenario involving any kind of mysticism, or naive, empty ideology, but an actual, objectively verifiable, interconnected intelligence within an entire ecosystem. It’s not symbolic, it’s literal. The planet literally has one gigantic superbrain. What’s wrong with that as a premise? The dances-with-blue-natives routine was groanwothy for many; what made it worse was the nods to contemporary issues (“Shock and Awe”?). The fact that the noble natives are _literally_ “plugged in” to the environment doesn’t make it any less groan-making. > [@](#): > > The Joker isn’t an evil archetype? The Joker isn’t broad? The Joker is realistic? I’m using the Joker quite deliberately as an example of a simple comic book character done well. I don’t demand “realism”, obviously a comic book isn’t realistic - only entertainment. The same simple character (like the Joker) can be done well, or badly; it isn’t the fact that the character is based on a simple archetype that makes the difference - it is how the character is handled. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/484 "2010-01-02T23:14:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I saw no “groan worthy” tropes in this movie, unless “genocide is bad” is groan-worthy. The “tree-hugging” accusations are off the mark (not that there would be anything wrong with that anyway) because this is not a scenario involving any kind of mysticism, or naive, empty ideology, but an actual, objectively verifiable, interconnected intelligence within an entire ecosystem. It’s not symbolic, it’s literal. The planet literally has one gigantic superbrain. What’s wrong with that as a premise? Because it’s pretty obvious that Pandora’s lush forests are still a metaphor for those on Earth- Sully even asks Eywa to intervene because humans have killed all their forests on their home planet and they’ll do the same to Pandora (Oh Noes! Trees will be hurt!) There’s a lot wrong with tree-huggery IMHO, but that’s for another thread. Point is, the heavy-handed environmentalism in the film (regardless of attempts to justify it in-film) was groan-worthy, and rest of the plot appeared to come from the [TVtropes.org](http://TVtropes.org) “Most Common Tropes” list, all of which are tired and therefore groan-worthy. I honestly believe the 3D was the only thing that redeemed the film, and I have no plans to see it again either at the cinema or on DVD. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/485 "2010-01-02T23:23:38Z")
Basically it just boils down to conservatives being upset that it had a moral message beside “kill the other.” ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/486 "2010-01-02T23:28:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Basically it just boils down to conservatives being upset that it had a moral message beside “kill the other.” You know US political labels have no real meaning to non-Americans, right? And if you’re going down that road, it could be argued that in your case “It boils down to a tree-hugger being upset that other people didn’t overlook the massive plot flaws and tired cliches of a film that was visually outstanding but otherwise not really that good.” Or, to put it another way: We have different opinions on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/487 "2010-01-02T23:43:55Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing is that we fairly quickly end up in “Assuming facts not in evidence” territory pretty quickly with this film. How important is this unobtanium stuff? Is it available anywhere else in the Galaxy? Are there other mining corporations who might want the concession? How powerful is RDA? They might be the 22nd century version of The East India Company and more or less free to do whatever they like on Pandora, for example. Also, how do the Na’avi regard the unobtainium? Is it valuable to them or is it a deposit of waste that they want to get rid of? I don’t recall anywhere in the film if the Na’avi had specifically been asked about the unobtainium and if they would like to sell it to the Company. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/488 "2010-01-02T23:57:39Z")
Go forth and [vote.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546208) ---
**Author:** ![Fatsdominum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@Fatsdominum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatsdominum)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/489 "2010-01-03T01:14:37Z")
I didn’t love it. I think [Le Monde](http://www.lemonde.fr/cinema/article/2009/12/15/avatar-sur-pandora-tout-est-extraordinaire-sauf-les-histoires_1280904_3476.html#ens_id=1286430) summed it up best: James Cameron built a grand organ to play circus music. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/490 "2010-01-03T01:43:57Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hated the forest people executing a direct cavalry charge into automatic weapon fire. Even the freakin’ _Ewoks_ had more sense than that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/491 "2010-01-03T02:00:38Z")
> [@Fatsdominum](#): > > I didn’t love it. I think [Le Monde](http://www.lemonde.fr/cinema/article/2009/12/15/avatar-sur-pandora-tout-est-extraordinaire-sauf-les-histoires_1280904_3476.html#ens_id=1286430) summed it up best: > > James Cameron built a grand organ to play circus music. That made me laugh out loud. I’m going to give Cameron a pass on this because he was trying to perfect new techniques with computer graphics and 3D while making the movie. He did a great job of keeping special effects from consuming the Terminator movies (at least the first 2) that I will overlook Avatar’s directorial assistant debut of Jar Jar Binks. I expect better from Avatar II, The Wrath of Con-Artists. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/492 "2010-01-03T02:03:04Z")
Come on. There was nothing in the movie as egregious as Jar Jar. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/493 "2010-01-03T04:43:53Z")
So, I finally got to see it today. at an 8:15 **AM** sold out showing no-less. I got to see it in 3-D IMAX. \*\* Epic. \*\* In every sense of the word. I am not about to skim 10 pages. Question:\*\* How Did Grace’s Avatar get her clothing? \*\* And related, How did Grace [As human] get her seaweed? One I am dying to know, and the other, I think was just a tad too bit convieneint, and or, the Navi know too much about Human modesty. Got to talk to my parents about Cyberpunk, and had to fall on The Matrix to make examples. This sucked, because I still can’t comprehend the rules that were set up for Pandorian body tanks / pods. Still not sure how or why they had to air lift the tanks, or how they got that many human arms to fight with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/494 "2010-01-03T05:10:11Z")
Grace could have easily put the tank top on her avatar back at the base before she ever ventured out. Remember, that’s where they originate from. Obviously, the cinematic reason it’s there is so you know which one she is. I don’t see why she couldn’t have collected her seaweed in her human form. She collected local biological samples as a matter of course. It would have been awesome to see Sigouney Weaver in one of those mecha suits, by the way. Even if it was just for a few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/495 "2010-01-03T05:29:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Grace could have easily put the tank top on her avatar back at the base before she ever ventured out. Remember, that’s where they originate from. Obviously, the cinematic reason it’s there is so you know which one she is. > > I don’t see why she couldn’t have collected her seaweed in her human form. She collected local biological samples as a matter of course. > > It would have been awesome to see Sigouney Weaver in one of those mecha suits, by the way. Even if it was just for a few seconds. I got the reason Immediately. To say nothing of the fact that the use of the … ear plug / ear grommet things for Nateri were perfect, beyond Identification. But What sized Stanford College shirts do Navi wear anyway? Yes, she could have gathered the seaweed, I was just saying that the… censorship there was not needed. Possible, not Probable. On the Mechs; I’m sorry, but Sgt.Everysargent can’t catch on fire, climb into a mech, put himself out, start up the mech, grab the weapon / gun, close the mech, run to the drop bay, and jump out, ALL just in the nick of time. Kinda like those old westerns, where the guy took 5 minutes to die from a clean shot, after he [or didn’t] tell the protagonist all that he needed to say. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/496 "2010-01-03T05:33:36Z")
And is the climax of the movie still Deus Ex Machina? Even if it was blatantly obvious that it was going be [by definition], long before then? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/497 "2010-01-03T16:59:19Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > But What sized Stanford College shirts do Navi wear anyway? The same women’s medium you can get in the college store. That’s right - I implied Stanford was fulla fat chicks. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/498 "2010-01-03T17:07:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The same women’s medium you can get in the college store. But the Navi are 10 foot tall. Right? [Or was it a tank top mid drift thing to begin with?] \*Also, Navi is like 4 inches tall, and can fly, usually around the juvenile hero of time, that saves Hyrule. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/499 "2010-01-03T17:11:15Z")
Another issue that bugs me: At the climax of the Movie, Sully goes to the other tribes and asks them to fight with him. Apparently, one of those tribes has MUCH stronger arrows [I would guess Ironwood, or something similar]. They are so strong, that the new arrows go straight through the copters’ windshield and human flesh in the fight. The first batch of arrows hardly even cracked the glass. To the point that It seemed to be a knife at a gun fight. \*\* Why would a race / tribe of people decide to use inferior tech? \*\*Were Nateris tribe never introduced to the omfg arrows? And the the quoting of my bold above for random Real Life purposes begins right about now… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/500 "2010-01-03T17:13:06Z")
Someone earlier in the thread said that it was the extra momentum of the swooping air attacks of the mounted archers that added the force to the arrows. I don’t recall the scenes well enough to know if that was the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=26)