# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/562 "2010-01-08T19:01:57Z")
Avatar has passed Return Of The King to become the 2nd biggest grossing movie of all time (behind Titanic) in only its third week. Wonder if it has any shot at Titanic. Anyone know what the third weekend numbers are? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/563 "2010-01-08T19:51:33Z")
_checks day of week_ Friday. No, not psychic here, but I’ll let you know Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/564 "2010-01-08T19:57:52Z")
Oh, I thought we were running into the 4th weekend now, since the news article mentioned it had earned that much in 3 weeks - I assumed 3 full weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/565 "2010-01-08T20:31:22Z")
:smack: You’re right of course, sorry. We’re going into the 4th weekend. The [3rd weekend](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2634&p=.htm) totals were $68.5 million (domestic) and $136.3 million (worldwide). It made money all week, and the current worldwide total is $1,137,846,909. Edit to add that while it’s [#2 on the All Time Worldwide](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/) chart, it’s [#10 on the Domestic](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm). It’ll move up over the next couple of weeks. Titanic is safe. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/566 "2010-01-08T20:49:37Z")
Just a though regarding the Navi’i arrows piercing the choppers later when they didn’t before. I think a more likely explanation than the increased momentum from being fired from above is that the cockpits simply weren’t armored at the top, since the expectation is that all of the attacks would come from below. There is a real-world parallel to this in tank and helicopter armor. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/567 "2010-01-10T07:07:15Z")
Just saw it. I really would have liked a bit more characterization. Does the evil corporate bastard always have to be pure evil? I would have liked a little less “we’re going to exterminate the savages!” and a little more, “This resource will save millions of lives on Earth”. It’s not that hard to put a little thought into the motivations of the secondary characters, to turn them into a bit more than cardboard cutouts. Of course the point of any movie is to manipulate your emotions. I don’t complain about being manipulated, that’s the whole point. I complain about NOT being manipulated. If I see the strings it doesn’t work. And the strings were much too visible in Avatar. That said, I enjoyed the hell out of the movie. I just think with a little more effort it could have been so much more with just a bit more care. Still an impressive achievement. I kind of liked seeing Sigourney Weaver reprising her role as Dian Fossey. I liked unobtainium. Heck, even UberSarge was a good character. But just one scene early on showing where UberSarge’s uberhard way of doing business saves a bunch of people’s asses would improve him dramatically. And so on. Just some ordinary humanity, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/568 "2010-01-10T07:08:35Z")
**Lemur866** I didn’t see him as pure evil. I saw him as a young overzealous executive who wasn’t that comfortable with what he was doing, but who wouldn’t admit that explicitly. It sounded to me like he was making up excuses to avoid feeling guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/569 "2010-01-10T07:22:17Z")
Yeah, but to psych himself up to commiting genocide he has to go all racist, which basically is just to signal to the audience that he’s eeeevil. Much better if he psyches himself up for genocide by focusing on all the good things that will happen if these incovenient people weren’t around. Or, in a really good image early in the film, Sully sees a truck roll by–with Navi arrows sticking out of the tires. The humans could worry a lot more openly about the hostility of the Navi, and how many innocent miners and surveyors have been slaughtered by those bastards. The point is, we never see the Navi from the perspective of the bad guys. We only see them as noble savages. Of course the perspective of the bad guys is misguided, that’s part of the deal, but we should at least see it, and that makes Sully’s rejection of that perspective more interesting. Give him some reason to really be loyal to Ubersarge, to really care about the success of the mission before he chucks it all. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/570 "2010-01-10T16:56:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Lemur866** I didn’t see him as pure evil. I saw him as a young overzealous executive who wasn’t that comfortable with what he was doing, but who wouldn’t admit that explicitly. It sounded to me like he was making up excuses to avoid feeling guilty. During the destruction of Home Tree, he had a stunned expression on his face (like most of the others watching at HQ). He wasn’t gloating. I don’t think he realized until that moment the extent of the evil he was doing, and then regretted it. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/571 "2010-01-10T18:39:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just saw it. I enjoyed it for what it was, visually stunning, entertaining and transporting. The story was formulaic, sure, but I don’t get why anybody is complaining about that. What were you expecting? What CGI extravaganzas _aren’t_ predictable? What action movies aren’t predictable? What superhero movies aren’t predictable? > > There was a lot of money sunk into this thing, and in order to be profitable, the story had to be familiar and accessible. When you’re driving this big of a truck, it’s not the time to start doing donuts or driving offroad. You bring it home safe, and in one piece. If you want twisty-turny plots, what the fuck are you going to see _Avatar_ for? > Trying make the characters more ambiguous or “deep” would have just made the movie boring as shit. Are the characters in LOTR ambiguous, or nuanced or multifaceted, or deep? Fuck no, they’re the definition of paper thin, one dimensional, “good/evil” archetypes, but I don’t see the fanboys bitching about that. Observing that those tropes exist in _Avatar_ is not insightful or clever, it’s just arch, and obvious and silly. It’s like being the guy who points out that superheroes can’t really have superpowers. Duh. That’s not the point. Fanatsy is about broad archetypes. If you want complex human drama, watch _General Hospital_. All this is fair enough, but a big silly blockbuster should have charismatic leads and should not be almost three hours long. Otherwise one can’t help but dissect the insultingly derivative plot. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/572 "2010-01-10T18:43:58Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > All this is fair enough, but a big silly blockbuster should have charismatic leads and should not be almost three hours long. Otherwise one can’t help but dissect the insultingly derivative plot. **2001: A Space Odyssey** neither had “charismatic” leads and was only slightly shorter than Avatar at 2:21. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/573 "2010-01-10T19:51:39Z")
I know I’m committing film heresy by saying this, but I’d go to see Avatar before 2001 any day. I don’t care how ground breaking it was, 2001 was extremely boring to actually sit through, and just on the screen itself there isn’t a massive amount of story going on (if you hadn’t read the book or had access to outside material you’d probably have no idea what you’d just watched). ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/574 "2010-01-10T19:53:48Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I know I’m committing film heresy by saying this, but I’d go to see Avatar before 2001 any day. I don’t care how ground breaking it was, 2001 was extremely boring to actually sit through, and just on the screen itself there isn’t a massive amount of story going on (if you hadn’t read the book or had access to outside material you’d probably have no idea what you’d just watched). I had neither at the time I saw it and you MADE sense of what you saw through the process of thought and discussion. It’s something I miss from modern movies. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/575 "2010-01-10T20:04:19Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > **2001: A Space Odyssey** neither had “charismatic” leads and was only slightly shorter than Avatar at 2:21. Seriously is this how people argue in favour of Avatar? Why don’t you at least try and claim he was charismatic or something. Such a non sequitur doesn’t stop me thinking Avatar is rubbish\*. I’ve never even seen 2001. \*Mostly. Sigourney was good, it looks very pretty and I cried a tiny bit when the planet decided to fit the evil corpos. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/576 "2010-01-10T20:08:01Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > Seriously is this how people argue in favour of Avatar? Why don’t you at least try and claim he was charismatic or something. > > Such a non sequitur doesn’t stop me thinking Avatar is rubbish\*. I’ve never even seen 2001. I don’t think “non sequitur” means what you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/577 "2010-01-10T20:31:17Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > … I’d go to see Avatar before 2001 any day. > > …(if you hadn’t read the book or had access to outside material you’d probably have no idea what you’d just watched). I would alternate watching them. 🙂 True, I hated the ending until I read the novel and “He did not know what he would do with this new thing…” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/578 "2010-01-10T21:31:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yeah, but to psych himself up to commiting genocide he has to go all racist, which basically is just to signal to the audience that he’s eeeevil. Much better if he psyches himself up for genocide by focusing on all the good things that will happen if these incovenient people weren’t around. I don’t think you are giving either Ribisi’s performance or Cameron’s direction enough credit here. This was one of the more nuanced performances in the film in my opinion. Possibly the most nuanced. I don’t think it’s to portray that he’s evil. I think it’s to portray his inner conflict. > [@](#): > > Or, in a really good image early in the film, Sully sees a truck roll by–with Navi arrows sticking out of the tires. The humans could worry a lot more openly about the hostility of the Navi, and how many innocent miners and surveyors have been slaughtered by those bastards. Right. > [@](#): > > The point is, we never see the Navi from the perspective of the bad guys. We only see them as noble savages. Of course the perspective of the bad guys is misguided, that’s part of the deal, but we should at least see it, and that makes Sully’s rejection of that perspective more interesting. Give him some reason to really be loyal to Ubersarge, to really care about the success of the mission before he chucks it all. I disagree. I think we do see the Na’vi from the perspective of the humans. One of the more subtley brilliant aspects of the film is how the viewer is kind of in the same position of ignorance as the humans. They continue to think that the intelligent race is the one that has ARMS. As of yet you still have people who cannot comprehend Eywa and her network of brains in the trees as an actual entity, a real live person. They continue to think of the Na’vi as the intelligent race on the planet, merely because they have arms and faces. This conceit is shown in most of the posts here even by people who have actually SEEN the film. The Na’vi aren’t so much a race, as they are like prions in relationship to Eywa. By seeing the Na’vi as the intelligent race, humanity is merely seeing its own reflection. It is only the creatures that resemble humans that are accepted as sentient. This is true of the people at the corporation as well as most of the viewers. > [@Colibri](#): > > During the destruction of Home Tree, he had a stunned expression on his face (like most of the others watching at HQ). He wasn’t gloating. I don’t think he realized until that moment the extent of the evil he was doing, and then regretted it. Yes. Agreed. That was the culmination of that character. I thought of him a lot in contrast to Paul Reiser’s character the executive from Weyland-Yutani in Aliens. \*\* Mr. Dibble\*\* I thought about your dismissal of Aliens and Avatar being in the same universe, and I realized that we have been operating under the assumption that they have FTL in Aliens, when I don’t remember any FTL. In fact I remember people being in cryo-sleep for travel with lots of time passing between films due to Sigourney Weaver being in cryo-sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/579 "2010-01-10T22:33:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would alternate watching them. 🙂 > > True, I hated the ending until I read the novel and “He did not know what he would do with this new thing…” Then you’ve kind of just proven my point that the film doesn’t tell the story adequately. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/580 "2010-01-10T22:42:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Then you’ve kind of just proven my point that the film doesn’t tell the story adequately. Nobody’s perfect. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/581 "2010-01-10T22:59:45Z")
We just saw it, and the effects and 3D were very impressive. It’s an immersive experience (like being an Avatar already), but, as everyon has remarked, awfully thin on plot. Some observations (and forgive me if they’ve been made, but there’s no way I’m wading through 11 pages of thread first) 1.) Pepper mill notes similarities to **The Incredibles** – the same two-rotored futuristic helicopters (You see them only in long shots in Incredibles), the same weird geography. 2.) Why are they looking for the ironically-named _unobtainium_? They ought to be trying to mine _Upsidaisium_ from _Rocky and Bullwinkle_. That’s they only thing that can be holding those Hallelujah Mountains up. really – they don’t give a word of explanation in the movie. I know I’ve seen similar things in SF art, but in a story or movie you expect at least lip service for things that go against common experience. 3.) Intelligent trees as home to people who live in harmony with it? Where have I seen this before? Alan Dean Foster’s _Midworld_? Some of it feels like Philip Jose Farmer’s _The Stone God Awakens_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=30)