# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/61 "2009-12-19T20:18:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As it stands, I figure the natives have about twelve years before the humans come back and neutron-bomb the entire ecosystem into sterility from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. Maybe, but keep in mind that they were not representatives of a government but of a corporation. The Ribisi character talks about how killing the natives would be a public relations problem but one the board members would be willing to deal with for the profit. It can be inferred, I think, that much of what was happening on Pandora was without the general knowledge of the public back on earth. Presumably, having the native population repel the human enterprise, with information on what exactly happened, and advocates within the scientific community would have _some_ political fallout back home and might prevent retaliation. Maybe not. And it is never explained exactly what the unobtanium is needed for and so we don’t know how much it would be in the average person’s interest (on earth) to look the other way in the face of genocide to obtain it. Of course, if a sequel were made, maybe it would turn out that Pandora is just a public terminal and the real brains are in the main planet and you really don’t want to get that one angry. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/62 "2009-12-19T20:23:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Shrugging and moving on would have been out of character, as would have slaughtering people unecessarily. But that’s only because the “character” of the Pandorans is a hodgepodge of every noble-savage cliché in the history of film. > [@](#): > > Why would you prefer them to be murderous savages? No, I would have preferred them to have some awesome ace-in-the-hole abilities relating to their spiritual fiber-optic network. “You humans think you’re so tough?” and then _blammo!_, the trees’ root network starts flexing and creating earthquakes and basically crunches the human into tiny bits. The defenses would ultimately prove both impressive _and_ sophisticated; the biological equal (if not the superior) of the humans’ machines. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/63 "2009-12-19T20:30:21Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Maybe, but keep in mind that they were not representatives of a government but of a corporation. The Ribisi character talks about how killing the natives would be a public relations problem but one the board members would be willing to deal with for the profit. Heck, the primary antagonist was a marine colonel with presumably little or no personal profit motive. It’s implied the marines are paid mercenaries, but this guy was really and obviously in mainly for the killin’. Recruiting such people won’t be difficult, and at $20 million an ounce, the incentive to try again is pretty much irresistible. Actually, when Jarhead (he has a name, but I forget what it was) talk about how the sky-people will come like rain unless they are stopped here and now, I remember thinking “What, are you kidding? Tell that to the Cherokee.” In fact, has there _ever_ an aboriginal uprising so impressive that it did anything other than delay the inevitable? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/64 "2009-12-19T20:32:07Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > …Maybe not. And it is never explained exactly what the unobtanium is needed for and so we don’t know how much it would be in the average person’s interest (on earth) to look the other way in the face of genocide to obtain it… The Panorapedia site I linked too goes into greater detail about this and it appears to be connected to the filmakers. Unobtanium is used in the production and storage of antimatter and without it intersteller commerce isn’t economically viable (it’s also the key to solving Earth’s energy problems). As powerful as the RDA is it’s still subject to some form of government oversite and their treaty with the UN gives them a monopoly on the mineral (& anything else derived from Pandoran expeditions) in exchange for not using WMDs on the natives and subsidising scientific research. And the RDA board of directors isn’t going to give a shit about “avenging” the deaths of their employees. Nor will they start using nukes if it would threaten their monopoly and/or render the unobtanium unminable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/65 "2009-12-19T20:42:44Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > And the RDA board of directors isn’t going to give a shit about “avenging” the deaths of their employees. Nor will they start using nukes if it would threaten their monopoly and/or render the unobtanium unminable. Consulting non-movie info shouldn’t count, especially when within the movie it’s made obvious that the corporation will fund just about any operation to get at the mineral. Neutron bombs, assuming they’re just as effective at destroying Pandoran biology as Terran, will leave the mineral intact. Heck, why not just use conventional firebombs? If there was some precious resource or object that had been _destroyed_ during the battle, I can imagine the humans just cutting their losses and leaving the Pandorans in peace just because they’re no longer of interest. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/66 "2009-12-19T21:17:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Consulting non-movie info shouldn’t count, especially when within the movie it’s made obvious that the corporation will fund just about any operation to get at the mineral. Speaking of consulting non-movie info, I don’t think you can assume that just because the corporation is in a futuristic Cameron movie 🙂 I think the reason the natives don’t slaughter the non combatants is the same reason the humans _might_ not come back and nuke them from orbit, because it would be a political disaster. What surer way to make sure the humans hate the blue people than to completely wipe the humans out. Now, you want to get really smart, let about 100 humans come back to the hive mind and communicate with it. As cynical as I am about human nature, the _underlying_ reason behind the fact that no one believes other people about their supposed supernatural experiences is because _they don’t exist_, not some government or corporate conspiracy sci-fi writers are so fond of. Scientists were allowed on the planet before: think how many scientists would want to come visit a planet with that unique lifeform on it? If the general opinion of the public and the government shifted in the scientists favor it could prevent [del]Weyl[/del]RTA from coming back and nuking it (after all they would probably need government approval to do so, otherwise they would have brought nukes with them already.) But of course the tree-link meeting with otherwise sceptical humans did not happen, for various plot, religious, and cliched reasons. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/67 "2009-12-19T21:18:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > But that’s only because the “character” of the Pandorans is a hodgepodge of every noble-savage cliché in the history of film. Right, and you would have preferred the savage savage cliche. So we can establish that cliches are not your problem. Your problem is with a species that doesn’t like killing for its own sake. > [@](#): > > No, I would have preferred them to have some awesome ace-in-the-hole abilities relating to their spiritual fiber-optic network. “You humans think you’re so tough?” and then _blammo!_, the trees’ root network starts flexing and creating earthquakes and basically crunches the human into tiny bits. The defenses would ultimately prove both impressive _and_ sophisticated; the biological equal (if not the superior) of the humans’ machines. Yes, that falls into the category of, “more intellectually satisfying for the Sci Fi geeks”, the kind where we can geek out about it, but it would be entirely dissatisfying for the moviegoing audience as there would be no comprehensible personal drama to unfold. Which is pretty much the problem of all Sci Fi. Most Sci Fi is hokey because we believe that human beings as we currently comprehend them will travel the stars. No, homo sapiens sapiens will be extinct when we travel the stars, cybernetically augmented human beings who will act in incomprehensible ways to a current human being will travel the stars if anyone. Maybe not even humans, just AIs. I had the same thought you had, but I think the limitation there is no the imagination of the filmmaker’s but the imaginations of the movie-going audience. Pretty much, if human beings travel to another star-system, it’s hokey. I don’t care how cool unobtainium is, the idea that it would be economically viable to transport a mineral from a planet on another star system back to Earth is pretty silly to begin with. The very notion of interstellar commerce is stupid. You simply cannot tell a good sci fi story that takes place on another planet. It’s not possible. It cannot be read and understood by our primitive society. It’d be like reading Neuromancer in 3rd century Roman Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/68 "2009-12-19T21:22:21Z")
I, too, was waiting for Pandora (or at least a very large manifestation of Eywa) itself to awaken and get Really Angry. Not because it would have been cool, which it would have, but because it seemed like the only logical way the Pandorans could defeat the humans. Again, I have a tactical fever and it only has one cure: More Dragons! ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/69 "2009-12-19T21:24:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I, too, was waiting for Pandora (or at least a very large manifestation of Eywa) itself to awaken and get Really Angry. Not because it would have been cool, which it would have, but because it seemed like the only logical way the Pandorans could defeat the humans. Again, I have a tactical fever and it only has one cure: More Dragons! In a minor way, that’s exactly what happened. The cavalry came to the rescue in the form of swarming dragons and stampeding…uh, rhino-things, summoned only by the need of the planetary organism/ Eywa. Neytiri even yelled “Eywa heard you!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/70 "2009-12-19T21:51:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right, and you would have preferred the savage savage cliche. I’ve stated what I would prefer at least twice. > [@](#): > > Yes, that falls into the category of, “more intellectually satisfying for the Sci Fi geeks” I daresay my proposed alternate ending would be intellectually satisfying for far more than one narrow strip of movie-watchers. I guess we’ll just have to wait for all the reviews and box-office numbers to come before finding out just how “satisfying” Cameron’s product is. > [@](#): > > the kind where we can geek out about it, but it would be entirely dissatisfying for the moviegoing audience as there would be no comprehensible personal drama to unfold. There’s plenty of room for personal drama to unfold in what I described. The rest of your statement, something about a fundamental weakness in science-fiction, is something I leave to others to analyze. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/71 "2009-12-19T22:08:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I, too, was waiting for Pandora (or at least a very large manifestation of Eywa) itself to awaken and get Really Angry. Not because it would have been cool, which it would have, but because it seemed like the only logical way the Pandorans could defeat the humans. Again, I have a tactical fever and it only has one cure: More Dragons! I was waiting for the plants and insects to jump in, myself. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/72 "2009-12-19T22:20:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ve stated what I would prefer at least twice. Yes, you would have preferred them to have a murderous bloodlust. That’s what you said. You wanted a savage savage. > [@](#): > > I daresay my proposed alternate ending would be intellectually satisfying for far more than one narrow strip of movie-watchers. I guess we’ll just have to wait for all the reviews and box-office numbers to come before finding out just how “satisfying” Cameron’s product is. Heh, where the N’avi are all wiped out? I doubt it. > [@](#): > > There’s plenty of room for personal drama to unfold in what I described. The rest of your statement, something about a fundamental weakness in science-fiction, is something I leave to others to analyze. What personal drama can unfold when WMDs deployed pre-emptively wipe out one side or the other? > [@](#): > > I was waiting for the plants and insects to jump in, myself. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/73 "2009-12-19T22:28:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, you would have preferred them to have a murderous bloodlust. That’s what you said. Go back and read _all_ my posts, please. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/74 "2009-12-19T22:35:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Go back and read _all_ my posts, please. I did. You wished one side or the other would have wiped out all of the other side. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/75 "2009-12-20T00:14:56Z")
It might be nice to open a different thread where people can rewrite the script to their hearts’ desire. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/76 "2009-12-20T00:47:55Z")
I read that Cameron has 2 sequels in mind if this one does well. The next two would cost less since the technology is already in place (and will get better, faster and cheaper) so I think it’s a good bet that they’ll happen. I think the Na’vi will get another visit from the humans, but I wouldn’t mind a middle movie that just focuses on Pandora. We only got to see a tiny bit of it. I loved the brief scenes where they went to get other clan members to join in the fight. > [@tr0psn4j](#): > > We had really different opinions about the movie. He really liked the story but said they could have shaved an hour out of it by truncating the training scenes in the middle. Man, that was the best part of the movie! I agree with Lantern: [QUOTE=Lantern] I think that Pandora is one of the greatest creations in all of cinema and the best parts of the film were when we join Sully in exploring the culture of the Na’vi and the beauty and terror of Pandora. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/77 "2009-12-20T00:58:27Z")
So was there a script behind that thing, or did Cameron (or someone) just piece the dialogue together from Dances With Wolves, The Lion King, some B-movies and every black-and-white war flick ever made? Yeesh. I thought Zoe Saldana did quite a good job, however. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/78 "2009-12-20T01:48:39Z")
Saw it this morning and really liked it overall. I agree with the criticisms of the basic story being derivative and simplistic, but I was impressed by the attention to detail in the depictions of Pandora in general and the Navi in particular. I would love to see even more of the flora and fauna of Pandora and to learn more about the Navi culture. The visual effects are just amazing. Anyone who predicted that the cgi was going to look like a videogame cutscene is laughably wrong. This really was head and shoulders above anything else I have seen in terms of creating cgi life that actually looks real and alive. I also thought this was the best, most naturalistic use of 3D that I have yet seen. It didn’t try to poke you in the eye every few minutes, but it was also not so subtle that it didn’t matter. It was juuuust right! I think it will still look gorgeous in 2D, but the 3D really enhances the scenery and adds to the sense of Pandora being real. I will definitely be seeing it in theaters again, hopefully on a bigger 3D screen. PS: The _Dances With Wolves_ comparison–while not inaccurate–has become something of an internet meme. I’ve read lots and lots of messageboard chatter about _Avatar_ over the last few weeks and everyone seems to think they are the first to make the _Dances With Wolves_ observation, even in threads where it’s already been mentioned dozens of times (I guess most people don’t read the threads they are posting in). Hell, South Park aired their “Dances With Smurfs” episode over a month ago. I just wish people who are complaining that the plot is unoriginal would come up with some criticism that is… more original. PPS: I like _Dances With Wolves_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/79 "2009-12-20T02:03:55Z")
Yeah the plot was so hokey. It was such a ripoff of Man against Man. I’ve seen that story done SO MANY TIMES!!! ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/80 "2009-12-20T02:23:40Z")
It was much better than Fern Gully! 😉 It was everything I love: science fiction, fantasy, fully-realized world, immersive, immersive, immersive, with jaw-dropping details and moments of great beauty and soul. I want to watch it again and again, then be plugged into life-support and Be There, explore there, fly, run, and live there. A search in The Game Room on Avatar didn’t bring up any useful result. I hope the game is as good for gamers as the movie is for movie-goers. ETA: I saw the 3D version. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=5)