# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/141 "2009-12-21T11:03:00Z")
[Avatar’s going to make its money back,](http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118012991.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2255) so we’ll get the two sequels, good! > [@](#): > > Twentieth Century Fox and James Cameron’s 3D sci-fi epic “Avatar” posted a **worldwide bow of $232.2 million** , led by a very merry $159.2 million overseas and a strong $73 million domestically. Global launch was the largest ever for a nonsequel and the sixth biggest international launch overall. > > …[much more at link] ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/142 "2009-12-21T14:45:42Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > I suppose the big question, for everyone but especially for those who were underwhelmed by the story (which is understandable) is, > > was it worth your money? Worth $8 to see a 400 million dollar production? Yes, most definately. Worth repeated viewings and a “I-gotta-own-it” dvd? I don’t think so. I really don’t think I could sit through it again. So much time was spent on the awe of seeing something for the first time that the thrill of discovery won’t hold the second time around. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/143 "2009-12-21T15:35:10Z")
Nit pick/pet peeve: the lead actor’s Australian accent would often creep in a bit, especially during the voice over narration. Why didn’t they just have him use his natural voice instead of “doing” an American accent? I’m sure that in 150 years there will be Australians in space. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/144 "2009-12-21T16:34:09Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Nit pick/pet peeve: the lead actor’s Australian accent would often creep in a bit, especially during the voice over narration. It did a little more than creep in - a lot of the time, his vowels were flatter than anything else in the movie. It didn’t bother me, though - it’s a nice enough blend of accents. Marmite Jarhead, sorta. The wife and I were both stunned by _Avatar_. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/145 "2009-12-21T16:53:27Z")
Worthington got a little aussie in the new Terminator movie too. Yeah, I was pretty much blown away. I felt emotionally into the movie in a way that I haven’t for many similar adventure-type stories, I think the immense attention to detail was enough to connect me to these profoundly odd-looking characters. The world of Pandora is a stunning cinematic achievement. Yes, the plot is basic. Yes, some of the colloquialisms ring hollow, but thinking about it we probably can’t imagine how humans will speak in 150 years. Yes, some of the anti-interventionist politics is heavy-handed. These things are all true. But none of them ruined for me the sheer joy of visual discovery that this movie delivers. There are seven or eight bravura scenes that deliver on the promise of the technology, of course, but then there are dozens of smaller scenes that are only amazing in retrospect, because in real-time, you are completely sucked in. I loved it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/146 "2009-12-21T17:01:27Z")
Why anyone would want to make Dances with Wolves in 3-D is beyond me. I keed, I keed. I liked the move, didn’t love it. The 3-D was very well done, but I am still not sold that it isn’tmore gimicky than anything else. Larger things in the foreground still look flat, it is just that they look like they are cardboard cutouts in front of a more realistic scene. Small things, like little flakes of ash, do appear very real in the movie, though. I am still trying to figure out why they needed the Avatars, though. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/147 "2009-12-21T17:02:04Z")
Saw it. Loved it. About the script: I was starting to get annoyed about how the Na’vi were capable of surviving some pretty serious falls, until I remembered two supposedly throwaway lines: that the Na’vi had particularly strong bones, and that Pandora had lower-than-Earth gravity. Problem solved. The same thing with the planet’s self-aware biosphere: they explained it twice, and moved on. No redundant or unnecessary information. That, people, is good screenwriting. As William Goldman wrote (in his review of _Titanic_, actually), a script isn’t dialog, it’s story. Anyway, I loved the classic sci-fi feel of the movie; it felt like a short story from the 1960’s by someone like Robert Silverberg, Ursula K. LeGuin or Roger Zelazny. Yeah… definitely Zelazny, a 60-page novella written around the same time as \*A Rose for Ecclesiastes \*, in first person the form of Jake Sully’s log, starting with his arrival at the planet, with the last paragraph beginning with the words “The aliens returned to their dying planet” - a classic SF line and the most chilling I’ve heard in a long time. Heh. Not many modern films get me thinking about Zelazny. Another huge point in the movie’s favor. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/148 "2009-12-21T17:08:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I feel if they _had_ been, it would have have been a much better movie. At the very least, a little less _Dances With Wolves_ and a little more _Apocalypto_ would have been nice. If they had been they wouldn’t have been comprehensible as characters. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/149 "2009-12-21T17:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=me] (and is it just me, or is the IMDB page for Avatar in some kind of reverse color-scheme?) [/QUOTE] > [@Equipoise](#): > > I think it’s just you, or else they changed it for a bit while you happened to be there. I’ve been there several times over the past week and it’s always looked normal to me. Hmmm…today (at work) the page looks “normal”. But I did find a discussion thread where people were getting the same effect: [Does the Avatar IMDb page look like this to you?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499549/board/flat/153543058?d=153543058&p=1#153543058) ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/150 "2009-12-21T17:34:19Z")
\>But it did have a rather cliched ‘seen-it-before’ plot Well, its the hero’s journey story. Specifically, its Dune in the jungle. Lets see, we have a young man coming from the outside to lead the natives against the outside invaders who are there for a substance that has some connection to their religion, which turns out to be real. The trees are the worms and the tree network is Shai-Hulud. The ending I was hoping for would have the main character reveal himself as a human to the Navi and be rejected or realize that its impossible to have a love with something so alien and then go back to Earth dejected and depressed. Instead they toss in a magical mind moving machine (which brings up questions about being immortal by stealing bodies). I find it amusing that someone who is ostensibly a westerner would be able to live in a preindustrialized, preenlightenment, warrior culture tribal theocracy that treats women as property. I imagine the first few months would involve a lot of “what the hell have I done” moments. The movie banks on the myth of the noble savage a little too much. As far as unobtanium goes, I believe that was using jokingly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/151 "2009-12-21T17:34:47Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am still trying to figure out why they needed the Avatars, though. Good question. It’s not like they were fooling anyone, and while it may be convenient to be able to walk around without a breather mask (I gotta wonder what’ll eventually happen to the humans who were judged worthy to stay on Pandora), a modified power suit would do as well and apparently be much cheaper. Further, having a mechanical power suit lets one carry all variety of recording gear. I vaguely recall a short story along similar lines a few years back - the equivalent “avatars” were in an environment with much higher gravity and much more environmentally hostile, making human incursion of any kind impractical. There’s no such restriction here - put on a breather mask and you can otherwise walk around in shorts and a t-shirt. I’m okay with just shrugging off the whole avatar thing and just picture a guy who get swept up in the strange new culture to the point of turning against his own, which makes this look more and more like a jazzed-up _Dances with Wolves_. The aliens just aren’t alien _enough_ to make the story original, when it could have been awesome, with the N’avi prevailing not because of their noble warrior spirit and not because they have the transplanted white guy to lead them to a victory they’d otherwise have no chance of achieving (which is actually kind of offensive in a way) but because Eywa turns out to be an actual planetary entity of some sort that goes all 2012 on everything and makes it clear that humans aren’t welcome anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Squooshed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Squooshed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squooshed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/152 "2009-12-21T17:36:04Z")
My wife and I saw it on Sunday. We both respected the technical achievement in the effects, but thought the storyline was far too ham-fisted and stocked with too many cliches to really draw us in. It’s an amazing visual feast, and worth the money we spent to see in the theater, but I can’t comprehend wanting to buy the DVD and watch it over and over again. After reading the comments here, I will say that I also respect the creation of Pandora and the depth of detail given to it. But I think a movie has to have a great story to really work and the plot in Pandora is just too obvious and too obviously derivative. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/153 "2009-12-21T17:54:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Good question. It’s not like they were fooling anyone, and while it may be convenient to be able to walk around without a breather mask (I gotta wonder what’ll eventually happen to the humans who were judged worthy to stay on Pandora), a modified power suit would do as well and apparently be much cheaper. Further, having a mechanical power suit lets one carry all variety of recording gear. > > I vaguely recall a short story along similar lines a few years back - the equivalent “avatars” were in an environment with much higher gravity and much more environmentally hostile, making human incursion of any kind impractical. There’s no such restriction here - put on a breather mask and you can otherwise walk around in shorts and a t-shirt. > > I’m okay with just shrugging off the whole avatar thing and just picture a guy who get swept up in the strange new culture to the point of turning against his own, which makes this look more and more like a jazzed-up _Dances with Wolves_. The aliens just aren’t alien _enough_ to make the story original, when it could have been awesome, with the N’avi prevailing not because of their noble warrior spirit and not because they have the transplanted white guy to lead them to a victory they’d otherwise have no chance of achieving (which is actually kind of offensive in a way) but because Eywa turns out to be an actual planetary entity of some sort that goes all 2012 on everything and makes it clear that humans aren’t welcome anymore. One advantage of having an avatar - in this wilderness where just about everything has pointy teeth and can kill you in an instant, you can walk around without being at risk of dying. Your avatar dying is unpleasant, for certain, but less problematic than becoming dragon food. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/154 "2009-12-21T18:00:00Z")
Saw it on friday, and I agree with most of the posters here. The visuals were great, really spectacular, but the plot and the science fall apart the more you think about them. It’s obvious that no thought has been given to the implications of space travel- once you can go from star to star in a reasonable time, everything else is cake. They had a starship in orbit (the civilians left on it) they could have atomized the planet if they had wanted, or just dropped big rocks instead of pallets of C4. It also pissed me off that humans were portrayed as weaker than the natives. It’s a low gravity planet- it has to be, or no ten-foot tall people or flying dragons. Humans should have been really strong and fast compared to them (higher gravity=faster, more dangerous falls=better reflexes). The ecosystem was obviously artificial, and should have been clear to the scientists- why would all the species have a biological USB port, and only one species actually have a use for it? That makes no evolutionary sense, but is very good from an intelligent design standpoint. Lastly, the native civilization confused me. They had warriors, but no one to go to war with. If they were anything like humans, the human’s strategy would have been obvious- find the tribe that hates the one you want moved, and give them weapons. Then just sit back and wait. They seemed totally peaceful- and yet each tribe was able to field hundreds of warriors- not hunters, warriors. Lastly, they are still screwed. in twelve or so years, the real military will show up, and they will surrender or die. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/155 "2009-12-21T18:07:30Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > One advantage of having an avatar - in this wilderness where just about everything has pointy teeth and can kill you in an instant, you can walk around without being at risk of dying. Your avatar dying is unpleasant, for certain, but less problematic than becoming dragon food. I dunno - Sully was endangered pretty early on by that lion-predator-whatchacallit. A beefed-up powersuit (thicker armor with only defensive weaponry) might be a better choice. It would certainly be a _cheaper_ choice. Incidentally, weren’t there about 20 avatars in total? Sully sees a bunch of them on his first run, and they all go to sleep in that open-air cabin, but right afterward we get pared back to the main three again. What were they doing when all this war stuff was going on? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/156 "2009-12-21T18:09:32Z")
Loved the story, loved the graphics! This may not change movies, but it is a damn good one. I disagree with people who said that the foreshadowing was awful and the story wasn’t deep. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/157 "2009-12-21T18:10:25Z")
Speaking of Titanic… The\* Aliens/Transformers\* robot body knife fight at the end (a robot has a knife? What?) kind of reminded me of the scene in _Titanic_ where Billy Zane chases Jack with a gun. Even though the entire freaking ship is sinking. It’s like Cameron read a note from Syd Field about upping the stakes, in reverse. But, like _Titanic_, I did get a wee bit choked up, despite myself. Last time it was the mom putting her po’ kids to bed/a watery grave (because I was thinking ‘This probably really happened’), this time it was the horse galloping by, on fire (because I was thinking ‘Something like this really happened’). Still think he could have cut 45 minutes and made the same point. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/158 "2009-12-21T18:42:59Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Speaking of Titanic… > > The\* Aliens/Transformers\* robot body knife fight at the end (a robot has a knife? What?) kind of reminded me of the scene in _Titanic_ where Billy Zane chases Jack with a gun. Even though the entire freaking ship is sinking. It’s like Cameron read a note from Syd Field about upping the stakes, in reverse. Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/159 "2009-12-21T18:44:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I vaguely recall a short story along similar lines a few years back - the equivalent “avatars” were in an environment with much higher gravity and much more environmentally hostile, making human incursion of any kind impractical. [Call me Joe](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55693), by Poul Anderson ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/160 "2009-12-21T18:48:15Z")
I always love how the bad guy has a chance to finish off the good guy, but he hesitates just long enough, because he has something to say, something like “How does it feel to betray your species?”, for somebody else to come along and save the day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=9)