# Avatar: Now that you've actually seen it. No spoilers in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626 "2009-12-17T11:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/161 "2009-12-21T18:56:26Z")
\>Lastly, the native civilization confused me. They had warriors, but no one to go to war with. I thought the idea was, like most tribal groups in the real world, they often fought each other for resources. Sure, they united against a common enemy, but that doesnt mean it was some peace planet. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/162 "2009-12-21T18:59:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > It’s obvious that no thought has been given to the implications of space travel- once you can go from star to star in a reasonable time, everything else is cake. I thought they did a good job of emphasizing that getting to Pandora is expensive. > [@](#): > > They had a starship in orbit (the civilians left on it) they could have atomized the planet if they had wanted, or just dropped big rocks instead of pallets of C4. That would only have compounded their crimes at the UN sitting they’re going to be hauled in front of now, anyway. > [@](#): > > It also pissed me off that humans were portrayed as weaker than the natives. It’s a low gravity planet- it has to be, or no ten-foot tall people or flying dragons. Humans should have been really strong and fast compared to them (higher gravity=faster, more dangerous falls=better reflexes). Humans don’t have carbon nanofibre bones… > [@](#): > > Lastly, they are still screwed. in twelve or so years, the real military will show up, and they will surrender or die. Why would the military show up when it’s the private RDA who’s fucked up? Probably more likely, reparations are in order. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/163 "2009-12-21T19:01:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Probably more likely, reparations are in order. That all depends on how badly they need Unobtainium doesn’t it? Now that Eywa has Grace’s intellect within her she should have a better idea of human technology and how it works. Jake can help them with the tactical aspects of it and clue them in as to military hardware. They have two scientists/technicians who stayed behind. I’m hoping for organically driven railguns myself. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/164 "2009-12-21T19:03:27Z")
Maybe I missed something in the setup, but where did the Na’vi think the avatars came from? They spoke human english, wore human clothes, and knew nothing about na’vi culture. Was it explained where they thought these avatars originated from? ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/165 "2009-12-21T19:04:42Z")
[quote=“Cat\_Fight, post:157, topic:521626”] Speaking of Titanic… The\* Aliens/Transformers\* robot body knife fight at the end (a robot has a knife? What?) QUOTE] Why wouldn’t it? I think it’s a nice detail the suits were designed to be big robotic men, not mech with guns for hands. This was also a mining operation, so these suits can pull double duty, loading craft and working in the field using their articulate hands and scaled-up tools – like the knife. That really made sense to me that the guns were scaled-up and not attached to the suits. If a gun jammed it can be dropped, where a gun-limb would only be a club. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/166 "2009-12-21T19:09:40Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Maybe I missed something in the setup, but where did the Na’vi think the avatars came from? > They spoke human english, wore human clothes, and knew nothing about na’vi culture. > Was it explained where they thought these avatars originated from? I think they understood that they were alien technology. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/167 "2009-12-21T19:23:09Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > \>But it did have a rather cliched ‘seen-it-before’ plot > > Well, its the hero’s journey story. Specifically, its Dune in the jungle. Here’s what I’m having trouble understanding. Everyone (colloquialism) is saying the script is unoriginal, essentially serving as a remake of some other movie. What I don’t understand is that I’ve seen so many different examples thrown around. Some say it’s Dances With Wolves. Others have said it’s Fern Gully. Now we have “Dune in the Jungle,” and there are many others I’m missing. Perhaps it borrows elements from all those films–I wouldn’t say that makes it unoriginal; no more so than any Tarentino film. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/168 "2009-12-21T19:26:20Z")
Theyre all examples of the hero of a thousand faces. > **[The Hero with a Thousand Faces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces)** > > The Hero with a Thousand Faces (first published in 1949) is a work of comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell, in which the author discusses his theory of the mythological structure of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world myths. > Since the publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell's theory has been consciously applied by a wide variety of modern writers and artists. Filmmaker George Lucas acknowledged Campbell's theory in mythology, and its influence on the Star War... > [@](#): > > In a well-known quote from the introduction to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell summarized the monomyth: > “ A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.[2] ” > > In laying out the monomyth, Campbell describes a number of stages or steps along this journey. The hero starts in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unusual world of strange powers and events (a call to adventure). If the hero accepts the call to enter this strange world, the hero must face tasks and trials (a road of trials), and may have to face these trials alone, or may have assistance. At its most intense, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help earned along the journey. If the hero survives, the hero may achieve a great gift (the goal or “boon”), which often results in the discovery of important self-knowledge. The hero must then decide whether to return with this boon (the return to the ordinary world), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world (the application of the boon). That said, I like hero myth stories, but I think the audience was expecting more or a deviation or challenge than what they got. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/169 "2009-12-21T19:28:05Z")
\>Was it explained where they thought these avatars originated from? Considering they used the terms ‘dreamwalkers’ and ‘puppets’, I think they understood the basic concept. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/170 "2009-12-21T19:28:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think they understood that they were alien technology. And most of them seemed very, very creeped out by it. Still they were apparently more succesful in field work that humans in masks were. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/171 "2009-12-21T19:33:09Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > Theyre all examples of the hero of a thousand faces. > > [The Hero with a Thousand Faces - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces) > > That said, I like hero myth stories, but I think the audience was expecting more or a deviation or challenge than what they got. Which was sort of my point; any movie can be boiled down to its core structure, and in doing so, every movie is a rip-off of some other (if not hundreds or thousands) of previous stories. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/172 "2009-12-21T19:35:30Z")
The more I think about it the more annoyed I am making myself about the actual MacGuffin-esque nature of the Avatars themselves. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/173 "2009-12-21T19:38:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Which was sort of my point; any movie can be boiled down to its core structure, and in doing so, every movie is a rip-off of some other (if not hundreds or thousands) of others. I dont think most movies can be boiled down to the hero myth. I mean, we cant fit 500 Days of Summer or the Big Lewbosky into that category. Scifi/fantasy fans are pretty much always reading the hero myth story. They’re pretty resistant to it and expect a modern writer to really jazz it up or play with it in a way thats new, the same way I expect a modern rock song to not be a clone of 1950s rock. I think Cameron just delivered Johnny B. Goode to an audience expecting Radiohead. We also got a standard melodrama. Bad guys vs good guys and not much exploration into their motivations and contradictions. If some negative parts of the Navi and some positive parts of human society and its need for this rock were explored I think a lot of people would have walked away a bit more satisfied. That said, I loved this movie. I imagine its what people in the 1970s thought of Star Wars, but its appeal has more to do with technical achievement than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/174 "2009-12-21T19:40:57Z")
[QUOTE=Pandorapedia] The Avatar Program was originally intended to create mine workers who did not need environmental protection systems and could eat Pandoran foodstuffs. But the cost of the mental link system remained too high for the numbers needed. Avatars are now used only for field work and, when the opportunity arises, to interact with the Na’vi, to study them and to study the Pandoran ecosystem. It was hoped that the avatars could act as unofficial ambassadors, but Na’vi have for the most part viewed these hybrid creatures with a mix of contempt and mistrust. [/QUOTE] I get the impression that the authorities back home were forcing RDA to subsidize scientific research. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/175 "2009-12-21T19:41:08Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Which was sort of my point; any movie can be boiled down to its core structure, and in doing so, every movie is a rip-off of some other (if not hundreds or thousands) of previous stories. Which is why I made that joke about it being a cliche rehashing of ‘man vs man’. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/176 "2009-12-21T19:42:13Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > I dont think most movies can be boiled down to the hero myth. I mean, we cant fit 500 Days of Summer or the Big Lewbosky into that category. Indeed, and I didn’t say such. I meant that any movie can be boiled down to one of a small handful of basic themes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/177 "2009-12-21T19:42:32Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > I dont think most movies can be boiled down to the hero myth. I mean, we cant fit 500 Days of Summer or the Big Lewbosky into that category. > > Scifi/fantasy fans are pretty much always reading the hero myth story. They’re pretty resistant to it and expect a modern writer to really jazz it up or play with it in a way thats new, the same way I expect a modern rock song to not be a clone of 1950s rock. I think Cameron just delivered Johnny B. Goode to an audience expecting Radiohead. I think you make the mistake in thinking that his audience is expecting Radiohead. A tiny fraction of his audience is expecting Radiohead. The other vast majority of it would have been turned off by Radiohead and it wouldn’t have made 232m in its opening weekend. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/178 "2009-12-21T20:18:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I think you make the mistake in thinking that his audience is expecting Radiohead. Perhaps, but I like to think even an unsophisticated viewer knows he’s being served something stale. This movie wont inspire people for repeat viewings, rentals, talking amongst friends, etc. I believe his Terminator movies, Titanic, and The Abyss did this because they did something right that Avatar did wrong. They didnt rehash yesterday’s movie, even if their themes were well explored by previous sci-fi works. Shame really, a couple of twists, unpredictable betrayals, or any other quick and dirty complexity would have really helped. At least big blockbusters like The Matrix know this lesson. Cypher’s betrayal, the option of surrendering to the machines for a life of luxury, the machines telling Neo that the smell of humans is too much for them and that humanity is a virus, etc. Not much, but enough to toss the morality ball back and forth. With Avatar its just humans bad, aliens good. > [@](#): > > The other vast majority of it would have been turned off by Radiohead 2001 gave them “Radiohead” and they appreciated it. I wouldnt sell sci-fi audiences this short. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/179 "2009-12-21T20:35:37Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > 2001 gave them “Radiohead” and they appreciated it. I wouldnt sell sci-fi audiences this short. Sci Fi audiences are irrelevant to box office success, they are a tiny niche market. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626/180 "2009-12-21T20:39:44Z")
Sure, but at the same time, they are the early adopters who tell their friends to see the movie. A lot of movies fail because sci-fi fans dislike it and dont recommend it. Word of mouth certainly has economic value and all the astroturfing and viral advertising doesnt help if the movie is poorly received by critics and hard core fans. Wolverine comes to mind. That should have been an easy blockbuster considering the popularity of the character and all the money tossed at it, but turned out to be a flop. You can take this attitude on that audiences are stupid and will do whatever advertisers tell them but historically its wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-now-that-youve-actually-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-op/521626.md?page=10)