# Avatar was a bad movie. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738 "2010-03-08T16:46:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/21 "2010-03-08T18:17:31Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In a more realistic parallel, there are some things the Navi could learn from humans- modern medicine, more opportunities to travel outside of their immediate surroundings, a greater understanding of the world, more options for people who did not fit into traditional life, etc. ``` The Na'vi children did attend a school run by Grace so they aren't unwilling to learn from and interact with the humans. ``` > [@](#): > > Jake’s interspecies relationship would no doubt would not be an entirely smooth road, nor would his acceptance into the group be so easy. It’s nowhere near a smooth road. Did you miss the part where they nearly kill him when they first meet him? Or his rivarly with Tsutey? Or where he is banished after the attack on Home Tree? I don’t think the humans are portrayed as unrealistically evil either. Selfridge is shown as having doubts and gives the scientists quite a lot of time before resorting to violence. I don’t think even the colonel is purely evil. I like to interpret him as a pure warrior who is interested in war for its own sake. The Na’vi are the ultimate professional challenge and that’s why he wants to fight them. This theme is developed in his early scenes. And of course the scientists are portrayed as humane, decent people. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/22 "2010-03-08T18:28:05Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Plus, the whole “magic purely good tree huggers who are so in touch with nature they actually physically connect to it” thing was so over done it was obnoxious. This sort of characterization, I believe, is actually harmful to the indigenous societies the Navi are supposed to parallel. Isn’t it time we dropped the whole "noble savage’ thing? You missed the part where the Navi are religious zealots who use violence against the immigrants who refuse to conform to the dominant culture. ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/23 "2010-03-08T18:30:02Z")
He had me at fiber optic dreadlocks. I pretty much had to stop hugging trees long enough to go sit in a theater, so the message, simple as it was, resonated with me. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/24 "2010-03-08T18:30:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Maybe that’s true of drama - I do think this applies to both Avatar and Titanic - but it’s not true of comedy. Could not disagree more, Story is esssential to any good movie, whether it is comedy, drama, horror, or what have you. In fact a good story with a very good structured is what makes us tend to attach ourselves more to certain movies than others. And I agree with the OP, _Avatar_ is not a great movie. It is a good movie, extremely competently executed, but totally lacking any depth. I doubt I have though twice about it in terms of its themes since I saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/25 "2010-03-08T18:33:50Z")
Movies do not need a story. There. I said it. A story is a good thing to have. But it is not a necessary thing. Movies are a visual medium. They are, quite literally, moving pictures. The visuals are vastly, vastly more important to a movie than the story and always have been. A talking-heads movie is _boring_, even if the plot is interesting. I can read a book if I want pure plot, thanks. I’ve been using a personal term lately for movies that are 100% visual and 0% story, though for all I know it’s probably in use elsewhere: _spectacle film_. I adore spectacle films. They’re the ultimate in eye candy, for when you want something pretty, not deep. Michael Bay’s films are like this, _Avatar_ is like this, the recent _GI Joe_, the recent _Speed Racer_ (currently my favorite spectacle film)…they’re all fun to watch, not for the cleverness of the plot but for the sheer visual spectacle. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/26 "2010-03-08T18:37:14Z")
To the OP: Late 2009 called, it wants its rant back 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/27 "2010-03-08T18:42:28Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Could not disagree more, Story is esssential to any good movie, whether it is comedy, drama, horror, or what have you. In fact a good story with a very good structured is what makes us tend to attach ourselves more to certain movies than others. The Marx Brothers’ best movies don’t have much in the way of a story and people have been watched them for 70 years. And I think a lot of people tend to cling to individual moments and jokes in a movie more than they get attached to the story. On a completely different note, the story in 2001: A Space Odyssey really isn’t important either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/28 "2010-03-08T18:49:50Z")
_Avatar_ is a very good telling of a very shallow story. There’s nothing wrong with that. There are many, many movies made by Hollywood that are just as shallow as \*Avatar \*and are not nearly as well-constructed. Was _Die Hard_ a bad movie because it didn’t explore the dark side of John McClane’s psyche? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/29 "2010-03-08T19:00:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Marx Brothers’ best movies don’t have much in the way of a story and people have been watched them for 70 years. And I think a lot of people tend to cling to individual moments and jokes in a movie more than they get attached to the story. > > On a completely different note, the story in 2001: A Space Odyssey really isn’t important either. The story in 2001 is critical. Anyway, these are exceptions to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/30 "2010-03-08T19:02:19Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Movies do not need a story. > > There. I said it. > > A story is a good thing to have. But it is not a necessary thing. > > Movies are a visual medium. They are, quite literally, moving pictures. The visuals are vastly, vastly more important to a movie than the story and always have been. A talking-heads movie is _boring_, even if the plot is interesting. I can read a book if I want pure plot, thanks. > > I’ve been using a personal term lately for movies that are 100% visual and 0% story, though for all I know it’s probably in use elsewhere: _spectacle film_. I adore spectacle films. They’re the ultimate in eye candy, for when you want something pretty, not deep. Michael Bay’s films are like this, _Avatar_ is like this, the recent _GI Joe_, the recent _Speed Racer_ (currently my favorite spectacle film)…they’re all fun to watch, not for the cleverness of the plot but for the sheer visual spectacle. I hate this, Movies are not a visual medium. Movies are a story-telling medium. Of course, movies don’t need a story, or can have a thin veneer of a story, but they are not great movies. We can argue, entertaining movies is not the equivalent of a great movies. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/31 "2010-03-08T19:04:00Z")
I think Cameron had a decision to make when putting this thing together. Did he want to make A) A complex gripping story with complex deep characters. or B) A movie that would rake in billions of dollars. The two simply do not go together in Hollywood. The more money you want a movie to make the more dumbed down you make it. I think Cameron knew this. He could have made the next Bladerunner if he wanted to but the masses don’t want another Bladerunner. They want Transformers 3. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/32 "2010-03-08T19:05:42Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Was _Die Hard_ a bad movie because it didn’t explore the dark side of John McClane’s psyche? John McClane was a divorced asshole with, probably, a drinking problem. This was indeed shown and given relevance in the first movie (and to a lesser extent in the third). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/33 "2010-03-08T19:06:11Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Was _Die Hard_ a bad movie because it didn’t explore the dark side of John McClane’s psyche? Or was Point Break or The Fast and the Furious a great story because the main character had to make a moral choice?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/34 "2010-03-08T19:07:38Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The story in 2001 is critical. It really isn’t. The atmosphere is what makes the movie interesting, and the best known sequence might be the ships docking to classical music, which does not advance the story. And the last 20-odd minutes of the movie are pure visual effects with no story at all. > [@](#): > > Anyway, these are exceptions to the rule. Yes, they are. And having established that there are exceptions, I’ve shown you can have a great movie without a great story. Avatar isn’t a great movie anyway, but I thought the point was worth making. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/35 "2010-03-08T19:14:56Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > I think a good deal of that may indeed be the way that the 3D was handled, I had not seen something so subtle and convincing before… I think the only way to really judge it for me will be to wait a while until such realistic 3D techniques are commonplace, and watch it again. This is it for me exactly. I saw it 3 times in IMAX 3D, and the 3D immersion was key to my enjoyment. During the 2nd viewing, we were too close to the screen and the 3D wasn’t in the peripheral vision sweet spot, so much of the 3D was shallow and ineffective compared to sitting in prime seats 3/4 back in the theater. When watched without the 3D immersion, it felt like a generic CGI romp like Spiderman or X-Men, but lacking in characters. But my other viewings when the 3D clicked, it became a transcendental thrill ride (but still with weak characters). ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/36 "2010-03-08T19:24:11Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I hate this, Movies are not a visual medium. Movies are a story-telling medium. There’s an argument to be made for the second sentence, but the first is patently untrue. They are not mutually exclusive in any case. ---
**Author:** ![meanoldman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@meanoldman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meanoldman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/37 "2010-03-08T19:24:42Z")
I thought it was a really long 3d episode of “Captain Planet”. All it needed was Whoopi Goldberg. And in a couple of cases, I thought 3d was just distracting. As in the " oh look, 3d leaf falling" “Oh look, 3d ash falling”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/38 "2010-03-08T19:28:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > John McClane was a divorced asshole with, probably, a drinking problem. This was indeed shown and given relevance in the first movie (and to a lesser extent in the third). And Jake Sully the crippled ex-Marine with no family and nothing to tie him to humanity, who was given a chance to become a warrior once more, was less of a complex character? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/39 "2010-03-08T19:36:25Z")
I enjoyed the hell out of _Avatar_. It was a fun two-and-a-half hours, and my wife and i actually contemplated shelling out another $16.50 each to see it on IMAX a second time. i also thought it was an incredibly awful movie. Ham-fisted allegory, embarrassingly bad dialog, caricatures for characters, mediocre acting, and a storyline as banal as laundry day and as predictable as sunrise. It had everything and nothing. It was a triumph of technology and visuals, and a disaster in every other respect. I think its long-term significance will be simply as a vehicle for introducing audiences to the new technology\*; in the future, much better film-makers than James Cameron will combine that technology properly with the other aspects of film-making to produce well-rounded, interesting, and truly great movies. - And also the oodles of money it made. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738/40 "2010-03-08T19:42:11Z")
> [@meanoldman](#): > > And in a couple of cases, I thought 3d was just distracting. As in the " oh look, 3d leaf falling" “Oh look, 3d ash falling”. It was, to a limited degree. I’m not saying that these distracting scenes would not have worked better in 2-D than in 3-D (some of them would have), and I’m not saying you’re claiming they’re a gimmick. But most if not all of these were not instances of 3-D as intentional gimmick, but of transposing 2-D cinema sci-fi-tropes onto 3-D and accidentally producing stuff that was halfway between pretty cool and 3-d cliche. For instance, the scene where the scientific instrument was pointing toward the camera could have been included in any 2-D sci-fi movie of the past 30 years and not have seemed out of place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-bad-movie/531738.md?page=3)