# Avatar was a great movie. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 16, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627 "2010-03-16T04:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/61 "2010-03-17T06:00:30Z")
> [@RheaDark](#): > > When I saw Avatar, I thought the obvious plot was to add to the horror of, “oh no, even this far into the future it’s happening_again._” Those who forget the history of bad plots are condemned to repeat them. For those who were bored to tears with the movie expect “Avatar II, the return of the Red Eye”. It will be shown in 1D. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/62 "2010-03-17T06:23:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In other words, the fact that so many people have found it meaningful is the criterion by which it should be judged, and not by the values of the minority who find it wanting. This is ridiculous. Again, by that metric _Alvin and the Chimpmunks: The Squeakel_ merits 10 times the attention that _The Hurt Locker, Moon, Bright Star_ and _A Serious Man_ deserve combined. Just because a film finds an audience doesn’t automatically make it great. It may be of interest from a cultural or sociological interest, but using popularity as the primary criterion of judgment is to confuse the impact of art with the impact of commerce. 1969 was the year of _The Wild Bunch, Butch Cassidy, Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider, Medium Cool, Z, Alice’s Restaurant, Shame, Andrei Rublev_ and _If…_ But the biggest moneymaker that year? Disney’s _The Love Bug_. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/63 "2010-03-17T06:29:57Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > This is ridiculous. Good thing that isn’t what I said then. Let’s take another look at what I did say: > [@](#): > > the fact that so many people have found it meaningful is the criterion by which it should be judged See? I said “meaningful”, not popular. There’s a difference. So your entire point is moot…unless you want to argue that people actually found _Alvin and the Chipmunks_ or _The Love Bug_ to be meaningful entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/64 "2010-03-17T06:40:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Good thing that isn’t what I said then. Let’s take another look at what I did say: > > See? I said “meaningful”, not popular. There’s a difference. > > So your entire point is moot…unless you want to argue that people actually found _Alvin and the Chipmunks_ or _The Love Bug_ to be meaningful entertainment. But you’re equating “meaningful” with “popular”, because all you do (aside from a few anecdotals) is parade box office statistics right and left. And how do you know all $2B of that revenue signifies “meaningful” as opposed to, say, “fun” or even “curiosity”? You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/65 "2010-03-17T06:42:40Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > But you’re equating “meaningful” with “popular”, because all you do (aside from a few anecdotals) is parade box office statistics right and left. And how do you know all $2B of that revenue signifies “meaningful” as opposed to, say, “fun” or even “curiosity”? You don’t. Exactly. I mean, every one of us in this thread who is criticizing the movie actually forked over our money to see it. We are a part of the box office success, and even though we are criticizing the film. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/66 "2010-03-17T06:45:36Z")
You guys are just grasping at straws now. I think I’m gonna call it a night. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/67 "2010-03-17T06:52:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You guys are just grasping at straws now. I think I’m gonna call it a night. If my “grasping at straws” you mean “pointing out the self-serving inanities in your argument,” you are correct. It’s interesting that you are concerned over **ArchiveGuy** ’s alleged misreading of your post, when you completely misrepresented his argument earlier on, were called on it, and dismissed it as irrelevant. I engaged with you in a Cafe Society thread because i thought that, in this forum, you might abandon some of your usual tactics such as misrepresenting other people’s arguments. _Plus ça change_, i guess. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/68 "2010-03-17T06:53:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You guys are just grasping at straws now. Now? They are the same arguments we’ve always been using–none of which you’ve managed to refute, btw. That you and other people like the film is without question. But you state that such appeal is automatic, unqualified evidence of greatness, to which the answer is simply, “Uh, no. It’s not.” ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/69 "2010-03-17T13:40:08Z")
I think Cameron’s biggest mistake was his intent. Make a big budget sci-fi thriller that delivers a message about war and the environment? For god’s sake why? Star Wars was a success because Lucas wanted to simply make a movie that harkened back to the old serial westerns. A simple story but a fun romp. Could you even imagine what Star Wars would have been if Lucas tried to make it with the same simple story but at the same time tried to deliver a message about war and the environment? (shudder) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/70 "2010-03-17T15:07:01Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Could you even imagine what Star Wars would have been if Lucas tried to make it with the same simple story but at the same time tried to deliver a message about war and the environment? (shudder) Star Trek? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/71 "2010-03-17T15:15:13Z")
I’ve been watching sci-fi movies for most of my life, starting with _Star Wars_ when I was 9 years old. I’ve been reading sf for almost as long, starting with a subscription to _Analog_ when I was 13 (a subscription which I have maintained for nearly 30 years). My take: I thought _Avatar_ was fantastic. Yes, it borrowed from a lot of sources, from Anne McCaffrey’s _Dragonriders of Pern_ series to the Pocahontas story to _Dances with Wolves_. However, writers have always done this. Shakespeare borrowed whole plots from earlier sources. Asimov famously based the fall of the Galactic Empire on the fall of the Roman Empire. Yes, the plot in _Avatar_ was simplistic. However, I did not find this to be a detriment to the film. On the contrary, a dense, complicated plot does not always work well on the screen. (I still have no idea what happened in the last two _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies, and found them to be all but unwatchable.) All in all, I thought that _Avatar_’s plot was just right. It had just enough detail to make the film work without bogging it down. And finally, the visuals were fantastic. I don’t think that anybody disputes this. When everything was put together, I thought it all worked, and I thought that _Avatar_ was one of the best films I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/72 "2010-03-17T15:58:33Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, the plot in _Avatar_ was simplistic. However, I did not find this to be a detriment to the film. On the contrary, a dense, complicated plot does not always work well on the screen. (I still have no idea what happened in the last two _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies, and found them to be all but unwatchable.) All in all, I thought that _Avatar_’s plot was just right. It had just enough detail to make the film work without bogging it down. See, my problem is not with the plot. It’s with the writing. The dialogue is bad. The exposition is clunky. The characterizations are threadbare. The larger story arc, with every beat along the way, is rote and predictable. There are plenty of movies that I love that don’t have the greatest plot, but the glory is in the detailing of the story and its inhabitants, which can flesh out a familiar or rudimentary plot with nice colors and textures. But in _Avatar_, I didn’t care about anyone because the writing was so thin and underdeveloped. It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare; look at Cameron’s original _Terminator_ for smart, clean, economical writing that propels the story forward without getting lost in the bushes of its own lofty ambitions. But every film from him since then has been more and more undisciplined in the writing, structure, and pacing. So a lot of people don’t feel that way (or don’t care); that’s fine. But that’s why the film is so unremarkable to me, even with the (overpraised) eye candy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627/73 "2010-03-17T18:28:33Z")
[If Camoron designed a car](http://images.loqu.com/contents/821/153/image/C/U2148P2DT20080626081320%281%29.jpg). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avatar-was-a-great-movie/532627.md?page=3)