# Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [April 24, 2019, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981 "2019-04-24T08:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/201 "2019-04-29T15:14:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > simster: > This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony’s snap did not kill the people who were “dusted”, but rather, that “dusting” was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes. That doesn’t make any sense. Tony Stark has absolutely killed humans, as well as non-human mooks, ever since the very first time he put on the suit. He killed thousands or millions of Chitauri when he redirected the nuke through the portal in Avengers. He’s never killed at quite the scale of Thanos, but I think he’d be perfectly happy dusting Thanos’s entire army. And why reuse the exact same disintegration visual effect if it’s supposed to be something different actually occurring to the victim? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/202 "2019-04-29T15:15:00Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > If Peter Parker had said “How’s she going to get it to the portal before they wreck it” and the female heroes all say “she’ll have help”, does that negate all of the objections? I don’t have any personal objections to the scene. I’m just saying that thinking it was ham-handed or otherwise didn’t work for you doesn’t mean that you “Didn’t get it”. It’s a movie. More specifically, it’s a superhero action movie. Everything is set up for a reaction or Rule of Cool. It’s not as though Marvel’s race with the gauntlet was derived from some academic assessment of her powers, it was “what’s going to look cool and get a desired reaction?” If it failed to get that reaction from you, it’s not a failing or misunderstanding on your part, it just didn’t work for you. I stand corrected on the mooks; I thought she got knocked off course or something there but I could very well be in error with my remembering. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/203 "2019-04-29T15:34:12Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > simster: > > This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony’s snap did not kill the people who were “dusted”, but rather, that “dusting” was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes. > > I don’t understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well). I like that - this ‘dusting’ is as much resetting history (go back to where you belong) - but I think that we’re supposed to view it as something more - and it doesn’t matter either way - as the loop is closed and we win - but its not a reset. re: Gamora - we’re not sure if Quill is mourning (knowing she’s gone) or hunting/searching. If nothing else - it shows that even with this reset, there are still people directly impacted by the ‘dusting’ and the events themselves will have lingering affects. The entire business with returning the soulstone ‘at the exact moment’ is really even harder to grok with what happens to Nat and/or Gamora. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/204 "2019-04-29T15:51:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I don’t have any personal objections to the scene. I’m just saying that thinking it was ham-handed or otherwise didn’t work for you doesn’t mean that you “Didn’t get it”. > > It’s a movie. More specifically, it’s a superhero action movie. Everything is set up for a reaction or Rule of Cool. It’s not as though Marvel’s race with the gauntlet was derived from some academic assessment of her powers, it was “what’s going to look cool and get a desired reaction?” If it failed to get that reaction from you, it’s not a failing or misunderstanding on your part, it just didn’t work for you. > > I stand corrected on the mooks; I thought she got knocked off course or something there but I could very well be in error with my remembering. I was referring to\*\* bucketybuck\*\*'s objection that the female heroes were irrelevant because Marvel didn’t need help blowing through 10,000 stooges on her way to the portal, and wondering if that was really the crux of **bucketybuck** ’s criticism. Clearly, a scene will either work for you or won’t; I found Thor’s scenes on Asgard to be pretty cringey up until his joy/relief at getting Mjolnir back. I think that my dislike was a tonal one; Thor’s anxiety and depression are played for laughs rather than taken seriously. Change that tone, and I would not have pulled up short. So I’m idly wondering whether changing Parker’s line would have solved **bucketybucks** precipitation of disbelief, or whether it was the women all physically converging at one time that was the problem. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/205 "2019-04-29T16:05:45Z")
(missed edit window) I think it’s fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment, like Thor’s panic attack being a joke took me out of the moment, but that wasn’t the way the initial criticism was framed. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/206 "2019-04-29T17:03:45Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment I think that’s fair, and it was compounded by the fact that most of the female heroes were secondary or side characters which only added to making it feel super obvious. “Oh boy, Wasp and Pepper Pots and Mantis are here to help…” It’s [perfectly fine to acknowledge](https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/tv-and-film/avengers-endgame-female-characters-scene/) the scene’s intent and be okay with it while still thinking that the scene itself was less than seamlessly inserted: > [@](#): > > It’s meant as a stirring moment of girl power, and it’s worked as such for some viewers. But others, including myself, found it rather jarring. Many of these women have previously been sidelined and they’ve certainly never all met before. Why are they suddenly marching into battle side-by-side? > […] > From the perspective of plot, it makes very little sense: how come all these women are momentarily free amid the chaos, but none of the men are? Surely the odds are that there’d be a ragtag bunch of men and women teaming up, not a neat all-girl line-up like this. That might sound like nitpicking, but such logic flaws are distracting. > […] > There’s simply no need for this big salute to grrrl power or International Women’s Day or whatever this is meant to represent. The film is already stacked with great moments for many of these characters. There’s Rescue fighting back-to-back with her husband, Iron Man. There’s Nebula overcoming years of psychotic conditioning to care for a sick Tony Stark. There’s Valkyrie running New Asgard when Thor is incapable of doing so. And there’s Captain Marvel taking down a key enemy weapon without a scratch. > > This line-up of female heroes therefore feels a bit patronising instead of celebratory. ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/207 "2019-04-29T17:11:44Z")
Does anyone know if that was new footage of Natalie Portman, or re-purposed archive footage? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/208 "2019-04-29T17:15:15Z")
I’ve just seen it. What can I add to what has been said before? I thought they did well to avoid the problem of Justice League where they basically waited for Superman to solve the problem. Here Captain Marvell just gave people a breather and knocked out Thanos’ ship before Thanos fended her off. I did miss the moment they pulled the switch on the gauntlet. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/209 "2019-04-29T17:16:31Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment, Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/210 "2019-04-29T17:17:28Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > Does anyone know if that was new footage of Natalie Portman, or re-purposed archive footage? According to [the directors](https://ew.com/movies/2019/04/26/avengers-endgame-natalie-portman/), the on screen footage was from Dark World, but they did have her do some new voice work. Which you probably couldn’t hear anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/211 "2019-04-29T17:18:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony’s snap did not kill the people who were “dusted”, but rather, that “dusting” was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes. No, they’re definitely dead. There’s no way the film makers would use the exact same disintegration effect if we’re meant to understand that Tony’s just putting them back in the past. That would just be spectacularly inept film making. Also, again, time paradoxes are specifically described as impossible in this film’s time travel model. You go back in time and try to change things, you don’t alter the time you came from, you just create an alternative timeline. That’s the entire reason the Avenger’s plan was, “Go back in time and get the stones, use them to undo the Snap,” and not, “Go back in time and strangle Thanos as a baby so the Snap never happens.” The latter wouldn’t change anything in their universe. Also, as noted, Tony Stark is absolutely willing to kill. Practically the first thing he does when he builds his first Iron Man suit is hose down a bunch of terrorists with napalm. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well). Gamora isn’t dusted, she just ran off after the battle was over, because she was picked up out of the time line before she met Quill or any of the other Guardians, and so has no emotional connection to any of them (except Nebula, and the relationship between the two of them is even more weird than usual right now). They just went to a lot of trouble to bring back one of the core cast members from one of their biggest sub-franchises. If they were just going to kill her again, they’d at least have put some emotional weight behind it, not just have it be something that flashes on Quill’s monitor for two seconds. Pretty sure a major part of GotG 3 is finding Gamora and convincing her to rejoin the crew. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/212 "2019-04-29T17:19:00Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment? If they had no thematic reason to be there, then sure. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/213 "2019-04-29T17:21:20Z")
Saw it on Saturday, Something I haven’t seen mentioned here yet: Do you think Nebula made sure to have Clint and Nat go together to get the Soul Stone? The Soul Stone requires not just a sacrifice, but a sacrifice of someone you love the most. Any other pairing goes there, they don’t get the stone. I think Nebula put together the pieces of what happened to Gamora and pushed those two to go. Which is also a little redemption for Quill ruining the plan on Titan. If he hadn’t done that, Nebula wouldn’t have figured it out. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/214 "2019-04-29T17:25:57Z")
My daughter just reminded me of my favorite line of the movie: “I swear to god, until this second I thought you were a Build-A-Bear.” > [@Miller](#): > > Gamora isn’t dusted, she just ran off after the battle was over, because she was picked up out of the time line before she met Quill or any of the other Guardians, and so has no emotional connection to any of them (except Nebula, and the relationship between the two of them is even more weird than usual right now). They just went to a lot of trouble to bring back one of the core cast members from one of their biggest sub-franchises. If they were just going to kill her again, they’d at least have put some emotional weight behind it, not just have it be something that flashes on Quill’s monitor for two seconds. > > Pretty sure a major part of GotG 3 is finding Gamora and convincing her to rejoin the crew. Yeah, that struck me as pretty obvious foreshadowing as to what’s going to happen in GotG 3. After they figure out who is really captain of the Benatar. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/215 "2019-04-29T17:36:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment? Depends on the heroes. If it was Bucky, Luis, Hawkeye, Corpsman Dey, Korg, Wong, Heimdall and Ned all coming together\* then yeah it would be pretty weird to see them all being “Yeah, Avengers power!” and wondering when they suddenly started coordinating efforts despite mainly having no clue who each other are. Which is what the all-women lineup felt like. \*We’ll drop the soft fleshy normal-types into some power suits, Pepper Potts style. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/216 "2019-04-29T17:36:38Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > “I swear to god, until this second I thought you were a Build-A-Bear.” “Maybe I am.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/217 "2019-04-29T17:40:30Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Saw it on Saturday, > > Something I haven’t seen mentioned here yet: > Do you think Nebula made sure to have Clint and Nat go together to get the Soul Stone? The Soul Stone requires not just a sacrifice, but a sacrifice of someone you love the most. Any other pairing goes there, they don’t get the stone. I think Nebula put together the pieces of what happened to Gamora and pushed those two to go. Which is also a little redemption for Quill ruining the plan on Titan. If he hadn’t done that, Nebula wouldn’t have figured it out. I thought that too. I think it makes sense, and I think it’s perfectly in character for Nebula - just because she’s on the side of the angels, that doesn’t mean she is one. Nebula is just unsentimental enough to knowingly sacrifice a member of her team, if it’s the only way to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/218 "2019-04-29T17:41:01Z")
muldoonthief: > [@](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense. Tony Stark has absolutely killed humans, as well as non-human mooks, ever since the very first time he put on the suit. He killed thousands or millions of Chitauri when he redirected the nuke through the portal in Avengers. He’s never killed at quite the scale of Thanos, but I think he’d be perfectly happy dusting Thanos’s entire army. He’s not a killer at heart. As soon as he saw, first-hand, the effects of the munitions manufactured by his company, he stopped manufacturing them. Everything he experienced during the Battle of New York - including having to kill a ton of Chitauri - gave him PTSD. Everything he did since then - Ultron, the Sokovia Accords - was for the sake of taking the killing out of his hands, or at least the decision that killing is necessary out of his hands. He does not have the heart to end lives. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/219 "2019-04-29T17:45:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment? I enjoyed the scene as it was, and I wouldn’t advocate for changing it, but I did ‘notice’ it. It put almost all the female heroes on screen at the same time - I suppose you could add Maria Hill and Sharon Carter and Janet van Dyne to the total count, so that would make it like 75%, what with Black Widow being dead. If 75% of the male heroes were dropped into the same frame without any of the female heroes, then yes, I think I would have thought it notable, in a ‘what a sausage party’ kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/220 "2019-04-29T17:53:37Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > muldoonthief: > > He’s not a killer at heart. As soon as he saw, first-hand, the effects of the munitions manufactured by his company, he stopped manufacturing them. Everything he experienced during the Battle of New York - including having to kill a ton of Chitauri - gave him PTSD. Everything he did since then - Ultron, the Sokovia Accords - was for the sake of taking the killing out of his hands, or at least the decision that killing is necessary out of his hands. He does not have the heart to end lives. I don’t agree with that at all. He did kill more Ten Rings members even after he stopped making munitions. He killed Obadiah Stane. The PTSD from New York was about nearly losing his own life, not killing Chitauri. He signed the Accords because he wants the decisions taken out of his own hands - because of him, tens of thousands of _innocents_ were killed in Sokovia. He killed multiple Extremis subjects in IM3, including Brandt, Savin & Killian. He killed Ebony Maw right at the beginning of Infinity War, and the only reason he didn’t kill anyone else is that the only one who showed up on Titan was Thanos. He really, really, really does have the heart to end lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981.md?page=12)