# Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [April 24, 2019, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981 "2019-04-24T08:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/421 "2019-05-02T00:51:14Z")
Larry Borgia: > [@](#): > > How is Gamora alive in this timeline? Is this a new timeline? If so, is there a timeline where the Avengers never undo the snap? But if that’s the case, that’s the timeline of Infinity War, and we’re left with a half dusted universe and a triumphant Thanos. And why wouldn’t the Avengers of that timeline do exactly what the Avengers of the main timeline did? Assuming that Gamora from the past (an alternate timeline) is now in the present of the “real” timeline, there’s no Infinity War problem in the alternate timeline - the Thanos of that timeline is dead and dust as a result of the battle in Endgame. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/422 "2019-05-02T03:55:26Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > He said [it will be a very long time](https://www.indiewire.com/2019/04/kevin-feige-long-time-x-men-marvel-cinematic-universe-1202057131/) before the X-men enter the MCU. The next 5 years are already plotted out. I actually hope his “very long time” is a euphemism for “never” - I think the X-Men work best in a standalone universe. I think I’m with you there. I’d rather see The Fantastic Four (and have the moviemakers get it RIGHT this time). Some random thoughts: -It may not be spoken outright, but I like to think that a genius like Bruce might have compensated for lost infrastructure, etc., when making his snap. -I hope this movie puts an end to all those “Thanos was right” edgelords. Before it came out, I’d hoped to see a scene where a character called Thanos out: “You had the power to change _reality itself_. You could have come to ANY other solution with that Gauntlet. Increase resources. Adjust birthrates so populations would level out naturally. Anything. This was _never_ about trying to save lives by making the hard choice. This was about you getting off on having power over life and death.” Well, we didn’t quite get that–but we did have Thanos decide that since people didn’t have the good sense to be GRATEFUL that he’d murdered trillions, that they’d try to undo it because they “remembered what was”, he’d just annihilate the ENTIRE universe and remake it to his own liking. He wanted people to fall down at his feet because he’d been the one to have the guts to make such a painful choice…and when that didn’t happen, he’d just find a different way to get worshiped. Because no matter what Thanos told himself, it was never about preserving life. It was all about his own ego. Like any fanatical demagogue. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/423 "2019-05-02T04:32:49Z")
You say that as though the Thanos who had that new plan was the same one who killed half the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/424 "2019-05-02T04:50:38Z")
We’ve seen that the MCU has a large science fiction setting that’s separate from Earth. It occurs to me that there must have been some planets that were really messed up by these events. Traumatic as the Snap was to the MCU Earth, there was at least some knowledge of what happened with Thanos and the Infinity Stones. Imagine an isolated world that isn’t aware that there are other inhabited worlds (like real life Earth). Then one day, half of all the plants, animals, and people vanish for no explainable reason. Then five years later, they all reappear unchanged. Those people are going to be really confused. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/425 "2019-05-02T04:53:03Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I… > > I’m really not a fan of the idea of Steve & Peggy being secretly married for decades. > > … > > Movies of this length is were actual intermissions would come in really handy. Yeah. :dubious: Yes, they shoudl have had a 15 minute one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/426 "2019-05-02T05:26:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … > > But the language of blockbuster action moviemaking is changing. The language of blockbuster action moviemaking was written by white men. Do you know how many movies with budgets over 100 million have been given to woman directors? [Nine](https://www.thewrap.com/9-women-who-have-directed-movies-with-100-million-budgets-photos/). The first one was Kathryn Bigalow in 2002. The next wasn’t until 2011 with Jennifer Yuh Nelson and Kung Fu Panda. Lana and Lilly Wachowski in 2012. Patty Jenkins in 2017. Ava DuVernay was the first black woman to get a budget over 100 million and that didn’t happen until 2018. > > And out of all of those movies only Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel (which was co-directed by a man) would fit what one would call a “blockbuster action movie.” Two movies in the entire history of film. > > So when you talk about the “language of blockbuster filmmaking” you are talking about movies that have been made by white-men that pandered to white men. Which is why Black Panther was so successful. Which is why Captain Marvel broke a billion dollars. Because there are millions of people out there who hadn’t been pandered too that finally are starting to get movies that are pandering to them, we are getting a chance to see people who looked and acted like them onscreen. When I finally watched the movie Moana the other day I was literally in tears for the first twenty minutes of the movie. It was overwhelming. When Hollywood has never pandered to you but then they put people on screen that look like you and sound like you it makes all the difference in the world. > … > > And its why this moment: that only last a few seconds onscreen, didn’t work for everyone. It didn’t fit the cinematic language you are used too, it didn’t pander to your expectations. > … Racist much?😛 America isnt the only place with $100MM blockbusters. Dante Lam’s _Operation Red Sea_ had a $530 million budget. (Dante Law isnt white, fyi:p ) Chen Sicheng\* Detective Chinatown 2\* had a $494 million budget. Actually there are dozens of Chinese films with budgets over $100MM. But as for Female Chinese film makers & directors we have several such as Rene Liu Ruo-ying’s\* Us and Them \*. S Shankar’s _2.0_ with $65Million budget is pretty close (and $65 Million gets you more than $100 million here). However, that moment in End Game worked for \*me. \* ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/427 "2019-05-02T05:34:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You say that as though the Thanos who had that new plan was the same one who killed half the universe. Good point–but my take on it is that the 2014 Thanos already had the whole decimation scheme firmly in mind (you know, for “the greater good” or so he told himself), learned about the eventual outcome of it, and made his little revision. (Thanks to present-day Nebula and her shared network with her past self.) So they weren’t THAT far off from being the same person. (After all, “our” timeline’s Thanos said “You should be grateful to me!” when the Avengers confronted him in the beginning.) ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/428 "2019-05-02T05:36:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’ve seen that the MCU has a large science fiction setting that’s separate from Earth. It occurs to me that there must have been some planets that were really messed up by these events. Traumatic as the Snap was to the MCU Earth, there was at least some knowledge of what happened with Thanos and the Infinity Stones. > > Imagine an isolated world that isn’t aware that there are other inhabited worlds (like real life Earth). Then one day, half of all the plants, animals, and people vanish for no explainable reason. Then five years later, they all reappear unchanged. > > Those people are going to be really confused. My guess is Carol’s going to be busy for a while yet, then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/429 "2019-05-02T05:49:59Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I… > > I’m also not sure what to make of Tony committing genocide. … I didnt see anything that he killed off more than a invading army. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/430 "2019-05-02T06:29:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Racist much?😛 …FUCK NO. > [@](#): > > America isnt the only place with $100MM blockbusters. …America is the home of the Hollywood blockbuster, which by implication is what we were discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/431 "2019-05-02T11:32:41Z")
I guess not genocide but rather mass murder. I’m not saying it was wrong necessarily but it is morally questionable enough for me to think about it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/432 "2019-05-02T12:30:09Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I guess not genocide but rather mass murder. I’m not saying it was wrong necessarily but it is morally questionable enough for me to think about it. How is it in any way morally questionable? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/433 "2019-05-02T13:14:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Now, we’re gonna cause another disaster _just_ as the world gets used to and has recovered from the last. People showing up with no home, no job, in the middle of freeways, the ocean, the air. People needing to be fed, and there’s no infrastructure to do it. The hundreds of millions who died from the aftereffects dont come back, and the many millions who die from being brought back die. We honestly have no idea how the gauntlet works. I think it’s reasonable that a device wielding the power of the stones that harness the roots of universal existence and which can make instantaneous change across the whole of creation can properly parse a wish like “I want the beings killed by Thanos’ wish to be safely returned” and understand intent without being a super legalistic monkey’s paw. So no one reappearing in the sky where their airplane was or into a pile of rubble with rebar through their head or in front of moving trains. Heck, one of these things is the _Mind Stone_ which holds the essence of conscious thought and emotion. Infrastructure shouldn’t be that terrible. They didn’t make any big show of the roads not working or the trains not running. Stark was able to zip over to Avengers HQ in his car commercial entrance. A lot of people are still living in New York City which isn’t known for its amber waves of grain so presumably we’re still moving food around. And, with all the living being restored, we now have a whole lot of extra cows and cornfields than we used to. Speaking of, I guess this would have been good for some species which will now also get a population boost after spending the last five years breeding in relative peace, like Cap’s whales (although others that were teetering probably went extinct from a 50% loss). There should be plenty of housing unless some cities burnt to the ground, especially when you consider that you’re not housing those who died in the after-effects of the Snap. I’m not saying that there won’t be a huge adjustment curve but I don’t see it being catastrophic. Aided, again, by the universal power of the stones that can probably do better than “Haha, you said you wanted him back so now he’s in the middle of the ocean and is going to drown lol”. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/434 "2019-05-02T13:33:19Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > A lot of people are still living in New York City which isn’t known for its amber waves of grain so presumably we’re still moving food around. That’s a nice literary tool…the FIVE…YEARS…LATER (loved how slow and plodding it came in)…was long enough that the initial stuff had a time to get resolved. AFA Stark’s Judgement and kill count, comics have always been about glossing over some ethical conundrums to work out others. They’re also all about Revenge (or Avenging) a wrong…Stark’s not killing a vast army of foes, he’s getting revenge for all the evil things they’ve done or will yet do. It’s not supposed to hold water…and since he’s dead and on the winning side, there’ll be no war crimes exercise. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/435 "2019-05-02T13:34:24Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > Good point–but my take on it is that the 2014 Thanos already had the whole decimation scheme firmly in mind (you know, for “the greater good” or so he told himself), learned about the eventual outcome of it, and made his little revision. (Thanks to present-day Nebula and her shared network with her past self.) So they weren’t THAT far off from being the same person. (After all, “our” timeline’s Thanos said “You should be grateful to me!” when the Avengers confronted him in the beginning.) Yeah, Thanos’ whole motivation was that his own planet was destroyed because they **didn’t** follow his plan of “randomly kill half the population”. He’s not interested in actually solving overpopulation leading to disaster - his goal is to prove to himself that he was right, and Titan would have been saved, and been grateful to him, if they’d just have listened to him. And he’s absolutely looking forward to being worshiped for his efforts. Heck, Ebony Maw has a canned speech he uses when they murder half a population, his whole “Hear me and rejoice” thing. And Thanos explaining himself on Titan: "With all six stones, I could simply snap my fingers. They would all cease to exist. I call that mercy. I’d finally rest… and watch the sun rise on a grateful universe." When Endgame Thanos finds out that he succeeded, but those ungrateful fuckers who weren’t killed dared to not bow down to him in praise and thanks, he modified his plan. > [@Quimby](#): > > I guess not genocide but rather mass murder. I’m not saying it was wrong necessarily but it is morally questionable enough for me to think about it. If that’s mass murder, then shooting down a bomber that’s about to drop bombs on your civilian population is murder too. Or torpedoing a troop ship bringing combat troops to invade your country. Hell, Captain Marvel may have killed more of Thanos’ troops than Tony did when she destroyed his ship, is she a murderer for that? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/436 "2019-05-02T13:39:17Z")
Well, playing that game we get the old 'the Earth is constantly moving so all those people reappeared in space roughly 20 billion miles behind us in terms of solar motion. That would suck. Also, speaking of infrastructure, why the hell were all those boats tied up at the Statue of Liberty? “Oh, we don’t have a use for all these boats. Let’s just park them in a spot that’s convenient for generating the maximum level of depression in those who see them.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/437 "2019-05-02T13:39:53Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > That’s a nice literary tool…the FIVE…YEARS…LATER (loved how slow and plodding it came in)…was long enough that the initial stuff had a time to get resolved. > > AFA Stark’s Judgement and kill count, comics have always been about glossing over some ethical conundrums to work out others. They’re also all about Revenge (or Avenging) a wrong…Stark’s not killing a vast army of foes, he’s getting revenge for all the evil things they’ve done or will yet do. It’s not supposed to hold water…and since he’s dead and on the winning side, there’ll be no war crimes exercise. Um…war crimes? I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means. What ‘war crimes’ could Stark be seriously accused of in the MCU or, specifically, this movie?? 😕 Now, in the comics there have probably been a few, but we are talking about the movies here. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/438 "2019-05-02T13:41:06Z")
Well I saw the movie with someone from Tønsberg, and she did not really recognize it:) Sort of like watching a Chinese movie that is supposed to feature New York, and uses a rather obviously grimy Chinese City instead. Honestly, this is becoming a bit of a running thing in the MU. They say they are in Norway, but when they show it, it doesn’t look anything like it. At least they did not use Australia like in the last Thor movie. Are we really that expensive or are the budgets just that small? Otherwise, I understood the Ancient Ones explanation of the time stream to mean that the Infinity Gems together form the timestream, and you generate a divergent reality if you remove one of them. But there is a certain plasticity to adjust for smaller changes. Then Thanos came forward in time and got dusted, so that theory was out the window. Didn’t really like the fat buffoon version Thor. His PTSD was played too much for laughs. I did like that he realized he’d make a terrible King. Also I kind of shipped Bruce and Natasha. I thought his Hulking out issues in the previous movie meant Banner could damsel in the Widow movie:( Has anyone considered that the whole “You have to give up a loved one for the Soul Stone” could just be the Red Skull trolling people? Not what you’d call a trustworthy source, and maybe he can derive a personal benefit from a sacrifice ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/439 "2019-05-02T13:52:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…war crimes? I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means. What ‘war crimes’ could Stark be seriously accused of in the MCU or, specifically, this movie?? 😕 Now, in the comics there have probably been a few, but we are talking about the movies here. Well, in the first Iron Man movie he’s clearly guilty of being a civilian waging war. That makes him - at best - a franc-tireur and subject to immediately extra-judicial execution if captured. He’d have none of the rights legal combatants have when captured. There’s also a decent argument that he routinely commits assault and murder by committing violence without being a member of any law enforcement department. His treatment at the Mandarin’s compound in Miami clearly exceeds any citizen’s arrest or stand-your-ground laws. As for Tony’s snap? Depends on how far it goes. It could be a war crime if he committed genocide and it went beyond Thanos immediate forces. Or if there were any medical personnel wiped out by the snap. Or hey, if Thanos is the last Titan - possibly? - he could actually be accused of genocide for taking actions that would lead to the elimination of an entire population. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981/440 "2019-05-02T13:59:30Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, in the first Iron Man movie he’s clearly guilty of being a civilian waging war. That makes him - at best - a franc-tireur and subject to immediately extra-judicial execution if captured. He’d have none of the rights legal combatants have when captured. > > There’s also a decent argument that he routinely commits assault and murder by committing violence without being a member of any law enforcement department. His treatment at the Mandarin’s compound in Miami clearly exceeds any citizen’s arrest or stand-your-ground laws. > > As for Tony’s snap? Depends on how far it goes. It could be a war crime if he committed genocide and it went beyond Thanos immediate forces. Or if there were any medical personnel wiped out by the snap. > > Or hey, if Thanos is the last Titan - possibly? - he could actually be accused of genocide for taking actions that would lead to the elimination of an entire population. I realize you’re being tongue-in-cheek, but I thought it was only a crime to specifically target clearly marked non-combatant medical personnel. You can’t intentionally sink an unarmed hospital ship, but it’s perfectly legal to sink a battleship that’s firing at you even if it has a sickbay and medical personnel on board. And I’m pretty sure the outriders don’t have field medics anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-endgame-seen-it-thread-spoilers-ahoy/832981.md?page=23)