# Avengers/JLA # 2 (SPOILERS!!!!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 1, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897 "2003-11-01T22:10:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/21 "2003-11-03T19:30:02Z")
Again though, as soon as he saw the speed of Superman he’d start throwing the lightning around. The guy can create massive storms which are, by definition, magical in nature. Also, he could just shoot energy from his hammer which would stun Superman at the very least. This would set Thor up to strike a serious hammer blow which would probably do Superman in. As for Kingdom Come, well Superman is on his knees in front of Marvel and doesn’t look to be in great shape. If Marvel started punching him then I think Superman would have been beaten which is what I think the book was implying. Again, Thor has been fighting for thousands of years. He is bright and he learns from his mistakes so I am disspointed that they had a slug-fest. Perhaps we might get a rematch with a more “realistic” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/22 "2003-11-03T20:26:12Z")
It seems this fight is causing all sorts of issues over on the DC boards. Evidently Busiek has come under some grief for his handeling of the fight. He has supposedly said (I have no link) that Thor was distracted in the fight and that he didn’t use all of his powers for fear that it might weaken him too much to help later on in the fight against the other JLA members. I think the battle was too short and I disagree with the result. Busiek was playing the fan favourite and I think the shortened battle highights that. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/23 "2003-11-03T21:11:45Z")
Superheroes hardly ever use all their powers, except in a climatic “I win this or everyone dies” match, which wasn’t true here. Busiek’s reasoning holds. Thor was distracted, he was fighting in a melee with his allies all around him (can’t zap indiscriminately), he had to be aware of Leaguers flanking him suddenly… All of which is also true for Superman, of course, but it puts a serious crimp in the “fry everything” strategy that would most favor Thor, restricting him to a slugfest, which favors the Man of Steel. Yeah, it was short, but the focus of the book isn’t “Thor vs. Superman”. the fight was a mere geeky diversion along the way. It was great for its purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/24 "2003-11-03T21:15:34Z")
Oh, and one more word on KC. He was playing possum. Luring Billy in so he could grab him during teh next strike. Remember, after that he survived a direct nuclear strike, and still had enough left over to rampage in the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/25 "2003-11-03T21:41:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\* > > And what can be said about the artwork but…wow. George Perez’s depiction of the Grandmaster’s pad is worth far more than a thousand words. > > \*\* Tell me about it! Lifesized Rock-em-Sock-em Robots and a Marvel vs DC Star Trek style 3-D chess set! Santa Claus is way cool in the Marvel Universe! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/26 "2003-11-03T23:08:24Z")
Well, the Thor fanboys have been out in force detailing numerous powers that Thor could have used (though I do see your point menocchio). Evidently Thor has super-speed he just never choses to use it (never heard of this but some cites were given). He can travel in excess of light speed and evidently he can visualize objects at this speed. This, however, is the coolest power I saw. Thor can create a vortex with his hammer that negates all outside influences and powers. This is how he defeated the Juggernaut. Presumably, this magical vortex would eliminate the source of Superman’s powers which would allow Thor to, er, kill him. The issue of Shazam’s lightning bolt was also raised and it seems that such a lightning bolt is puny in power in comparisson to Thor’s mastery over the weather and his ability to reign down hundreds of bolts. So, what does all this prove? That I have no life and I am regressing back to 18. Alternatively, I think it was a poor depiction of what should have been an epic fight. Further, I don’t think the result was an accurate reflection of Thor’s power. Anyone have any thoughts about issues 3 & 4? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/27 "2003-11-03T23:48:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*Fenris: > Well, to be fair, Hulk didn’t actually _lift up_ the mountin range, he merely kept a portion of it from falling down. It’s not at all the same thing, and no “stupider” than any other depiction of the Hulk’s strength in Marvel comics. \*\* **Chaim** : you’re correct…I cutnpasted an earlier text…the later draft said something like "stoopid-looking…there was a panel of a huge mountain range and a still-visible(?!!) Hulk holding up the range. " BTW: I just checked…I have no idea what I was remembering, but I’d swear there was a really long shot of the mountain being dropped on the heroes and a teeny tiny Hulk, still visible below it holding it up on his shoulders, Atlas-style, but it’s not in the comic book so I can only assume that I’m hallucinating in my old age! 🙂 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/28 "2003-11-04T00:35:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\ ***Chaim** : you’re correct…I cutnpasted an earlier text…the later draft said something like "stoopid-looking…there was a panel of a huge mountain range and a still-visible(?!!) Hulk holding up the range. " > > BTW: I just checked…I have no idea what I was remembering, but I’d swear there was a really long shot of the mountain being dropped on the heroes and a teeny tiny Hulk, still visible below it holding it up on his shoulders, Atlas-style, but it’s not in the comic book so I can only assume that I’m hallucinating in my old age! 🙂 > > Fenris \*\* Possibly you’re just remembering the cover of issue 4 of Secret Wars (first superhero comic book I bought, in a 3 pk) which showed a cutaway view of the heroes under the rock with Hulk bracing it up. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/29 "2003-11-04T01:01:01Z")
I agree with **Max** : the cover (which, as all covers do, tended to hyperbolize) indicated that the Hulk was holding up the whole mountain. The interior story stated that the Hulk was simply holding up that portion that was over the heroes which, compared to the rockies, was probably an infinitesimal portion of it. I’d love some more clarification on what “tonnage” is for MU purposes. I suspect that Marvel doesn’t have much of one, either: IIRC, Spider-Man is listed at being able to lift 10 tons, yet I’ve seen him struggle holding up objects significantly under 20,000 pounds (such as that obnoxious piece of absurd-looking machinery from, what was it, _Amazing Spider-Man_ #38?). ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/30 "2003-11-04T01:08:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Carnage \* > \*\*Possibly you’re just remembering the cover of issue 4 of Secret Wars (first superhero comic book I bought, in a 3 pk) which showed a cutaway view of the heroes under the rock with Hulk bracing it up. \*\* Nope. I (mis)remember a horizontal double-panel (top panel, right-hand page) that looked like this: ```auto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ / \ / \ ------------------------------------- * ``` Where the ^^^^ stuff is the mountain range and the . is the Hulk, but looking at the issue, it doesn’t exist. The only thing I can think of is that it might have been flashbacked in Secret Wars II, (and I can’t get at those at the moment) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/31 "2003-11-04T01:14:23Z")
Actually, in the last post the Hulk was played by the \* not the . Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/32 "2003-11-04T02:19:08Z")
**Fenris** , you WANT to get _Secret Wars II_? Do I need to drag you off for psychotherapy? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/33 "2003-11-04T03:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*Nope. I (mis)remember a horizontal double-panel (top panel, right-hand page) that looked like this: > > ```auto > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > / \ > / \ > ------------------------------------- > * > > ``` > > \*\* You’re the Perez of ASCII. **Lochdale** > [@](#): > > Well, the Thor fanboys have been out in force detailing numerous powers that Thor could have used (though I do see your point menocchio). Evidently Thor has super-speed he just never choses to use it (never heard of this but some cites were given). He can travel in excess of light speed and evidently he can visualize objects at this speed. This, however, is the coolest power I saw. Thor can create a vortex with his hammer that negates all outside influences and powers. This is how he defeated the Juggernaut. Presumably, this magical vortex would eliminate the source of Superman’s powers which would allow Thor to, er, kill him. The issue of Shazam’s lightning bolt was also raised and it seems that such a lightning bolt is puny in power in comparisson to Thor’s mastery over the weather and his ability to reign down hundreds of bolts. Sure, then Superman would have just gone to orbit and fried Thor with heat vision until he cried uncle. Then he would’ve summoned Krypto to finish the job, and given the hammer to Jimmy Olsen, just to embarass Thor. Yeah, he could’ve, and if he had been fighting Superman alone, and had been aware of how powerful Big Blue really was, and the stakes were high enough, probably would’ve. Hundreds of thunderbolts, in the middle of a melee with teh rest of his friends, in front of an object he was trying to protect/claim? Thor’s not that dumb. Btw, cutting Superman off from the sun would still give him hours until he lost his powers. The point is, comic folk often bring out one-time-only powers, or don’t use their abilities to their fullest theoretical extent. We have to judge them by the way they _usually_ fight. I’m not a huge avengers fan, but everything I’ve read suggests that under the circumstances of this fight, Thor’s strategy was in character, and a Superman victory was possible. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/34 "2003-11-04T03:33:45Z")
I got it. I just need to dig it up. And for all that I didn’t like Secret Wars I and hated II, Secret Wars III _rocked_.\* Fenris \*Yes, Secret Wars III. Fantastic Four about 313-325 (not all those issues, but in that range). Even if Englehart was being jerked around by whoever th’ editor in chief was at the time: “Get rid o’ Sue and Reed and bring in Ms. Thing and oooohhh, someone else. Crystal maybe. Oops. Get rid of Crystal. Oops. No, you can _have_ Crystal back, but make room for Reed and Sue. Um. Maybe not. But get rid of Crystal, ‘k? Oh and who th’ hell ok’d you bringing in Ms. Thing?” After the “Crystal’s in/no she’s out” game went on for about 8 issues, Englehart started getting annoyed enough that he just having her appear and disappear without explaination. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897/35 "2003-11-04T05:18:07Z")
The God of Thunder not using lightning was in character? Er…no, not at all actually. Bad fight, bad writing (“it goes to 11” cough cough) poor result. I actually liked Secret Wars II but then I thought compact discs were just going to be a passing fad… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avengers-jla-2-spoilers/210897.md?page=1)