# Average Total Taxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479 "2012-01-05T07:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/81 "2012-01-06T01:35:43Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > Oh sorry 3% my mistake. Somebody around the 45th percentile pays 2%? > The graph has a steep slope for us middle fifth of taxpayers. > Would you say this article is misleading? > [Washington Post link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/15/AR2009041503371.html) You quoted that figure as “federal tax” but the Post article says it applies to federal \*income \*tax. Second, that figure doesn’t pass the sniff test. The Post cites the CBO but does not specify the source of the data. [Here is a chart by the CBO](http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2010/graphics.cfm) (see chart 3 of 6) that shows the following year. The rightmost data is for all households and shows average federal \*income \*tax at around 9%. I can’t believe things changed that much from 2006 to 2007. Chart 6 of 6 in the same link shows \*total \*federal tax (2007) to be about 20%. This includes “…individual income taxes, social insurance (payroll) taxes, corporate income taxes, and excise taxes.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/82 "2012-01-06T02:04:36Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Here is a chart by the CBO (see chart 3 of 6) that shows the following year. The rightmost data is for all households and shows average federal \*income \*tax at around 9%. Look on that same chart, at the middle quintile. The blue bar shows federal income taxes for that group at roughly 3%. That’s what the Post is referencing. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/83 "2012-01-06T02:18:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look on that same chart, at the middle quintile. The blue bar shows federal income taxes for that group at roughly 3%. That’s what the Post is referencing. Indeed, the Post did refer to that segment rather than the overall population. However, I was trying to verify the statement in the OP as written: > [@sbright33](#): > > The Washington Post says our average federal tax is 2%. ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/84 "2012-01-06T02:22:28Z")
Thanks so much for your help! I’m trying to make sense of the pie chart in Figure 2. [http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/](http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/) The days: 36,22,15,12,12,4 don’t line up with the dollar amounts here: > **[Federal State Local Government Tax Revenue in United States for 2011 - Charts...](https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total_revenue_2011USmn)** > > Charts and Tables of US Tax Revenue and Debt, Federal, State, and Local: Income Tax, Social Insurance, Sales, Property Taxes. From US Government sources. The individual and corporate income taxes can be combined like this: 48,22,15,12 ignoring the 4 for now Compared to $1611,943,380,460 These numbers match the CBO. My main concern is the Social Insurance. Does the pie chart include the employer contributions? Can we agree the $1611 and 943 are correct for 2011? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/85 "2012-01-06T02:30:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Can we agree the $1611 and 943 are correct for 2011? Yes. Absolutely. I, for one, am in total agreement with these figures. I’ve never been more sure about anything in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/86 "2012-01-06T02:35:28Z")
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42. I’m going to wake up tomorrow and realize that I am dead and this whole thread has been purgatory. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/87 "2012-01-06T02:36:23Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > @dracoi- 24/52= 46%? It all depends on what definitions you use. For myself, I would say that I pay 15% on the personal side (12k/84k) and 10% on the company side (about 12k/120k), using total tax from all sources and gross revenues in both cases. However, this is not the kind of definition being measured in some of the other statistics people are reporting, so you can’t compare it to that. For a measure of only federal income tax, you could say it’s a mere 3k/56k or about 5%. (I play the deduction/credit game well.) For all federal taxes (income plus FICA), that comes up to about 6k/56k, or about 11%. (Structuring the company the way I do limits the payroll taxes.) Again, the company pays no federal income tax. It’s income is added to my personal income and taxed on my personal return. (When people cite statistics showing a decline in corporate income tax collected, this is one significant cause. A lot of corporate tax is paid on personal returns, especially for businesses in the range of $1-$10 million in revenue.) We really do pay very low taxes in the US and that’s largely because costs like health care and retirement are shifted to individuals rather than being paid through taxes.\* [Here’s](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html) a fascinating article by Inc Magazine that compares the costs to business. There are followup articles that compare taxes for two US states and Norway [here](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/comparing-tax-rates-in-the-us-and-norway.html?nav=next), and a table that shows the cost of labor between the two countries [here](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/comparing-labor-costs-in-norway-and-new-york.html?nav=next). ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/88 "2012-01-06T03:11:43Z")
@leaffan- Sarcasm is not going to help us online with text. ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/89 "2012-01-06T03:21:29Z")
The Taxfoundation uses total revenue (in each category) and total income. They don’t look at individuals or groups by income. It’s the sum of tax revenues and the total income of all citizens. Why can’t I? Why doesn’t it match? [http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/wp3-20080326.pdf](http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/wp3-20080326.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/90 "2012-01-06T03:26:43Z")
I vote for 10, 2, and 4. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/91 "2012-01-06T11:29:23Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I vote for 10, 2, and 4. 7 Up! ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/92 "2012-01-06T13:58:16Z")
3.1415 It makes a nice pi chart. ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/93 "2012-01-10T04:36:03Z")
Do you believe everything you read online without thinking about it? Blindly… If you want to know the truth about taxes PM me. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/94 "2012-01-10T04:45:48Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > If you want to know the truth about taxes PM me. So what happened to > [@sbright33](#): > > I don’t have an agenda. Sure sounds like you have an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/95 "2012-01-10T05:12:22Z")
My agenda is understanding the truth. For 2010: 28% of 12.35 trillion (total personal income) is 3.46T. Yet our government spent 6 Trillion. The deficit was about 1 Trillion. Where did the rest of the 6T come from? Hint: It’s not a trick question. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/96 "2012-01-10T15:57:58Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > My agenda is understanding the truth. For 2010: > 28% of 12.35 trillion (total personal income) is 3.46T. > Yet our government spent 6 Trillion. > The deficit was about 1 Trillion. > Where did the rest of the 6T come from? > Hint: It’s not a trick question. It has to be a trick question because you’re using trick numbers. In the latest complete budget year, [FY 2010](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget), the government spent $3.456 trillion and took in $2.162 trillion. Where did the rest of the money come from? Selling bonds. Now you tell us where you get $6 trillion from. And tell us why you used 28% of total personal income as your multiplier for federal tax receipts even though you’ve been told a zillion times that the 28% includes all taxes of every kind. And tell us why you keep leaving out corporate taxes even though you’ve been told about them. And why you leave out excise taxes, fees, and other federal revenues even though you’ve been told about them. And why you leave out bonds even though you’ve been told about them. And why anyone needs to get secret information from you by PM that you are unwilling to put out in public for the whole of us to pick apart. ---
**Author:** ![sbright33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@sbright33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbright33)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/97 "2012-01-25T15:54:56Z")
6T is spending on all levels of government, not just Federal. As you said, the 28% is meant to include all taxes. Not just Federal or income tax. 12T / 6T is roughly 50%, not 28%. Yes, some of that comes from selling bonds. Who has to pay back the money from selling bonds eventually? The reason I’m over this thread and choose PM is because nobody is thinking here. I don’t want to read what anyone has Googled and regurgitated blindly without common sense thought applied first. Some groups (by income) pay more than 50%. Some groups less. I’ve calculated these numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/98 "2012-01-25T16:13:57Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > Who has to pay back the money from selling bonds eventually? We do. To ourselves. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the money represented by government bonds is owed to Americans. Is that a problem? It can be. Is it currently an insurmountable problem or accounting trick? Nope. And I don’t know of any economists (well, the real ones, not the faux conspiracy theory internet ones) who thinks it is. And you still haven’t produced anything like a CITE for the $6T. You claim it’s spending at all levels (local, state, federal). As shown above, the Feds are responsible for about $3.5T. Where are you getting numbers for the rest? It’s been 2 weeks. Pony up with the goods. Where are you getting the numbers for state and local? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/99 "2012-01-25T16:30:08Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > The reason I’m over this thread and choose PM is because nobody is thinking here. > I don’t want to read what anyone has Googled and regurgitated blindly without common sense thought applied first. > > Some groups (by income) pay more than 50%. > Some groups less. > I’ve calculated these numbers. What groups pay more than 50% of their income in taxes? Because with a maximum marginal rate of 35% only for income that substantially exceeds six figures, and with state tax rates tending to be in the single digits, AND that state taxes are deductible from Federal income taxes, not to mention all the other deductions and exemptions that exist, I think it is extremely uncommon for anyone in the United States to pay 50% of their income in taxes. To say that there are whole groups of people who pay this much deserves some kind of explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479/100 "2012-01-25T17:30:34Z")
> [@sbright33](#): > > The reason I’m over this thread and choose PM is because nobody is thinking here. This would be a perfect place to use the ‘head hitting a brick wall’ smiley. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/average-total-taxes/608479.md?page=6)