# Avoid a traffic ticket by ignoring the police and pulling into your garage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432 "2008-10-31T15:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/21 "2008-10-31T16:59:33Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Have you ever seen the cops break off the chase because the perp has run on to private property and, oh well, that might be his own home so we can’t go there? Only if the perp is a diplomat and he just ran onto the consulate grounds, but I think that’s out of scope for this discussion. The British actor, David Niven, had an issue with the police shortly after he came across to the US to make movies. He had been out at a party one night, and a cop car came up behind him with its lights on, but no siren, which, in England at the time, apparently meant “I’m in a hurry to get some where; speed up so you can get out of my way.” He did this. Turns out that was not the practice in Southern California, which was especially unfortunate as he had been drinking… ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/22 "2008-10-31T17:00:39Z")
> [@The\_Unkempt\_One](#): > > In reading the Missouri law that is found here: > > [http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000150.HTM](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000150.HTM) > > it seems that the resisting and evading is only a misdemeanor. > > Will a police officer still pursue someone into their home if the traffic offense was no more than a misdemeanor, and evading and resisting was only a misdemeanor as well? Yes. > [@](#): > > City Of Kirksville, Respondent, v. Gregory D. Guffey, Appellant > > No. WD 39094 > > Court of Appeals of Missouri, Western District > > 740 S.W.2d 227; 1987 Mo. App. LEXIS 4645 > September 15, 1987, Filed > > JUDGES: Kennedy, C.J., Presiding, Pritchard and Lowenstein, JJ. > > OPINION BY: KENNEDY > > OPINION > > [\*227] Defendant appeals from judge-tried convictions of driving while intoxicated, careless and imprudent driving, and failure to yield to emergency vehicle, all in violation of the city ordinances of Kirksville. He was assessed a fine of 250 for the intoxicated driving charge, and 50 for each of the other two. He appeals with two allegations of trial error. > > The facts are as follows: > > [\*228] City Patrolman Roberts about midnight on January 23, 1986, fell in behind a red Camaro driving along the city streets of Kirksville. The Camaro in the space of a few blocks drove halfway across the center line of the street on three different occasions. Patrolman Roberts determined to stop the vehicle. He turned on his emergency lights and drew closer to the Camaro. The Camaro, which the officer [\*\*2] recognized as belonging to the defendant, slowed down after a short distance as if to stop, then accelerated rapidly. The officer at this point turned on his siren along with his emergency lights. A race along the city streets ensued, which reached speeds in excess of 100 miles per hour. > > The Camaro arrived at defendant’s residence, and had been parked in the lighted garage when Roberts drove up. The defendant was going through a door which led from the garage to his residence. The garage door was descending as Roberts got out of his car and approached the garage. He was able to arrest the door’s descent with his foot 10 or 12 inches from the ground. > > From a deck attached to the house Roberts knocked on the door and demanded admittance. There was no response. Through a kitchen window he saw a blonde white woman in the kitchen. She was standing in front of and facing an opened refrigerator. > > Two other city police officers now arrived. One of them crawled under the garage door and opened it. Further pounding on the door by the officers and calls to defendant still brought no response. They opened the unlocked door from the garage and went up the stairs into a bedroom. Defendant and the [\*\*3] woman were in bed, under covers. Defendant seemed to be asleep. The officers pulled off the covers. The woman was fully clothed. The defendant had on the red T-shirt which he had been wearing when Roberts saw him enter the house from the garage and was in his sock feet. Beside the bed was a pair of blue jeans, wet in the crotch area. Defendant’s shorts were also wet in that vicinity. > > Defendant gave every evidence of being in an advanced state of intoxication. He mightily resisted the officers’ attempt to arrest him, but at length they were able to wrestle him down the stairs and into their police car. They arrived at the police station at 12:15 a.m. on January 24. > > 1. The legality of the arrest. > > Defendant filed a motion to suppress “evidence obtained by the Kirksville Police Department contemporaneous with and subsequent to the illegal entry into the residence of defendant.” The overruling of this motion defendant says was error. He says the entry into his house to arrest him without a warrant violated his Fourth Amendment right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures, made applicable to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment. Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643, 6 L. Ed. [\*\*4] > 2d 1081, 814 S. Ct. 1684 (1961). He cites cases which hold warrantless home arrests unreasonable and illegal which would be permissible if made in a public place. Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 63 L. Ed. 2d 639, 100 S. Ct. 1371 (1980). HN1Go to this Headnote in the case.Warrantless home arrests are not condemned, however, if they are justified by the exigencies of the situation. Welsh v. Wisconsin, 466 U.S. 740, 80 L. Ed. 2d 732, 104 S. Ct. 2091 (1984). The City claims that this arrest falls within the latter category of cases. > > We hold that the trial court was correct in denying defendant’s motion to suppress evidence. The arrest was lawful and the evidence gained thereby was admissible. There were two features of the case which make the exigent circumstances justifying the arrest – hot pursuit and the need to preserve evidence. > > Defendant expressly concedes that the officers had grounds for a warrantless arrest outside defendant’s home, but he claims that they could not validly effect a warrantless arrest by a nonconsensual entry into his house. > > The officers, however, pursued defendant into his house. It was a clear case of “hot pursuit”. HN2Go to this Headnote in the case.It is held that “a suspect may not defeat an arrest which has [\*\*5] been set in motion in a public place, and is therefore proper under Watson [U.S. v. Watson, [\*229] > 423 U.S. 411, 46 L. Ed. 2d 598, 96 S. Ct. 820 (1976)] by the expedient of escaping to a private place.” U.S. v. Santana, 427 U.S. 38, 43, 49 L. Ed. 2d 300, 96 S. Ct. 2406 (1976). > > In addition to the element of “hot pursuit”, there was present here the need to preserve evidence of defendant’s blood alcohol level. There was probable cause to suspect from the course of defendant’s driving that he was intoxicated, and it was on that charge that the officers made the arrest, along with the charge of failure to yield to an emergency vehicle. Defendant’s blood alcohol might have dissipated while a warrant was being obtained, or he might have imbibed more alcohol, making any chemical test unreliable. This factor by itself was held in Welsh v. Wisconsin, supra, not to justify a warrantless home arrest – but the Supreme Court emphasized in that case that the State of Wisconsin had given the crime of drunken driving a minor status in classifying the first offense as “a noncriminal, civil forfeiture offense for which no imprisonment is possible.” Id. at 754. Said the [\*\*6] Court, “The penalty that may attach to any particular offense seems to provide the clearest and most consistent indication of the State’s interest in arresting individuals suspected of committing that offense.” Id., n.14. By contrast with the noncriminal civil forfeiture Wisconsin treatment of the offense, the City of Kirksville by ordinance has made a first offense of drunken driving, or of driving with a blood alcohol of more than .10 percent by weight, punishable by up to $ 500 fine and three months in jail. 1 Welsh would not invalidate the arrest in the present case. > > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - Footnotes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > 1 Under the statutes of Missouri, under which defendant might have been charged, the penalty for first offense driving while intoxicated is a class B misdemeanor, Sec. 577.010, RSMo Supp. 1987. A class B misdemeanor is punishable by up to 500 fine, Sec. 560.016, RSMo 1979, and six months in jail, Sec. 558.011 RSMo Supp. 1987. The penalty for first offense driving with .10 of one percent or more by weight of alcohol in the bloodstream is a class C misdemeanor. Sec. 577.012, RSMo Supp. 1987. A class C misdemeanor is punishable by up to 300 fine, Sec. 560.016 RSMo 1979, and 15 days in jail, Sec. 558.011, RSMo Supp. 1987. > > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > - End Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > [\*\*7] A second distinction between Welsh and the present case is that Welsh did not feature a true “hot pursuit” situation, as the Supreme Court observed, 466 U.S. at 753, while the present case is a clear case of “hot pursuit”. > > An arrest in quite similar circumstances to the present was upheld in State v. Niedermeyer, 48 Ore. App. 665, 617 P.2d 911 (Or. App. 1980), as against a claim that it was an illegal search and seizure. The defendant’s suspected offense there was attempting to elude a police officer, described by the court as “a class A misdemeanor and a major traffic offense.” Id. at 913. > > 1. The sufficiency of the evidence of identification of defendant. > > Defendant challenges the sufficiency of the evidence to support the conviction, arguing that the identity of defendant was not shown, that the driver could have been the lady instead of the defendant. > > Officer Roberts, who was acquainted with defendant, testified that he could not identify defendant as he drove the red Camaro, but could identify “a white male” as the driver. He recognized the defendant as he was going into his house through the interior garage door. This was sufficient to identify the defendant [\*\*8] as having been the driver. If there was evidence to indicate that the woman was the driver, that fact issue was for the trier of fact and we are not convinced that he made a mistake in resolving it against defendant. > > The judgments of conviction on all charges are affirmed. > > All concur. > > DON W. KENNEDY, C.J., Presiding But see, _Welsh v. Wisconsin_: [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=466&invol=740](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=466&invol=740) (Warrantless, nighttime entry of petitioner’s home to arrest him for a civil, nonjailable traffic offense, was prohibited by the special protection afforded the individual in his home by the Fourth Amendment) (N.B. \*Welsh \* does not really address the hot pursuit doctrine–the court found the state’s hot pursuit claim “unconvincing because there was no immediate or continuous pursuit of the petitioner from the scene of a crime”) and then see, \*e.g., \* People v. Thompson, 38 Cal. 4th 811; 135 P.3d 3; 43 Cal. Rptr. 3d 750 (2006) (reviewing law nationwide: courts limit \*Welsh \*to non-jailable offenses). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Unkempt\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@The\_Unkempt\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Unkempt_One)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/23 "2008-10-31T17:52:06Z")
Thanks, **Gfactor** , that looks like exactly the sort of thing I was looking for! ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/24 "2008-10-31T17:55:55Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > The potential ticket avoider was flabbergasted, as he thought if you made it home they had to leave you alone and you got out of the ticket. I love this idea. “You can’t ticket me! I’m on BASE!” Unfortunately, reality isn’t a school yard game of tag! ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/25 "2008-10-31T18:13:37Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > Don’t rely on the **halffast** advice of DIY lawyers!You might be subjected to additional charges. > So stop your car and face the music! Nothing to add, except that “halffast” is an excellent [eggcorn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/26 "2008-10-31T18:17:13Z")
> [@clarkstar](#): > > your coworker is a damn liar Not so sure: maybe the cop was feeling tired or already had the quota for the day or was just about to complete a shift so didn’t want to pursue the ticket/arrest for some reason. Of course I wouldn’t rely on laziness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/27 "2008-10-31T19:13:00Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Only if the perp is a diplomat and he just ran onto the consulate grounds, but I think that’s out of scope for this discussion. > … Almost. Happened at my Dad’s Army base- it was a Nike Hercules base and entry was heavily controled- guards had loaded guns, dogs, etc. The Local PD was out to get the guys from the base over something (Ithibk there had been a Base vs PD sports game, accusations of “ringers” ect), and they had been catching the guys nearly every day- speeding, whatever. One guy had a hot car, and instead of pulling over, he accellerated and pulled into the base, whereupon his buddies closed the gates. The PO claimed hot pursuit, the guards claimed Top Secret base, the guards had bigger guns. Of course the ADA contacted the AG, but after the Base Commander explained the problem to the AG, the “perp” was given only a mild write up. The AG said the ADA had nuthin without a Federal warrant and there was no wat to get one of those over a speeding ticket. However, he did have to stay on the base for 3 days and even then left in another guys car. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/28 "2008-10-31T19:57:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Almost. Happened at my Dad’s Army base- it was a Nike Hercules base and entry was heavily controled- guards had loaded guns, dogs, etc. > > The Local PD was out to get the guys from the base over something (Ithibk there had been a Base vs PD sports game, accusations of “ringers” ect), and they had been catching the guys nearly every day- speeding, whatever. One guy had a hot car, and instead of pulling over, he accellerated and pulled into the base, whereupon his buddies closed the gates. The PO claimed hot pursuit, the guards claimed Top Secret base, the guards had bigger guns. Of course the ADA contacted the AG, but after the Base Commander explained the problem to the AG, the “perp” was given only a mild write up. The AG said the ADA had nuthin without a Federal warrant and there was no wat to get one of those over a speeding ticket. > > However, he did have to stay on the base for 3 days and even then left in another guys car. Not as extreme, but a similar thing happened to me. My stepfather was in the Army, and I lived in Fort Sheridan, IL when I was in high school. One time I was driving along Sheridan Road in the neighboring town of Highwood. A cop had been following me for a mile or two–it turned out that I had a burned-out brake light, and he was following me to confirm this and pull me over. When I got to the base entrance, I put on my turn signal, applied the brakes, and turned into the base. The cop immediately turned after me, and flipped on his lights. I stopped for the gate guard, who told me to sit tight. The guard went back to talk to the cop. After a few minutes, he came back and told me that the cop wanted to write me a ticket. The gate guard told the cop that he did not have jurisdiction on the base, that he didn’t turn on his lights until I had crossed onto federal property (and thus could not claim hot pursuit), and that he (the cop) could pound sand. 😃 The guard then told me that I should probably get the brake light fixed before venturing back off base. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/29 "2008-10-31T20:11:59Z")
Of course, the opposite is also true. I once worked at a group home for developmentally disabled adults. One of my co-workers had a boyfriend who was a pilot. We went to his base for a tour. When we arrived at the gate we found out that the plates on our van were expired (the vehicles were maintained by the company that ran about 10 group homes in the area). They wouldn’t let the van onto the base with expired plates, but they also wouldn’t let us leave the base with expired plates. Did I mention that we had six developmentally disabled adults in the van at the time? Yeah. That was fun. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/30 "2008-10-31T20:16:43Z")
The _Guffey_ case provided by **Gfactor** is pretty much how Ohio law treats these situations, too. In some very minor cases, I could see an overstretched/tired/lazy cop just writing a summons and not taking defendant into custody, but in most cases he or she will keep coming after you in hot pursuit, “home base” or no. ---
**Author:** ![katie1341](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/91b2a8/32.png) [@katie1341](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katie1341)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/31 "2008-10-31T20:31:48Z")
Don’t take legal advice from someone who’s not a lawyer. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been talking to a client in jail who I’ve told something that they don’t like, such as “no, the search was legal, can’t challenge it” or “the state has a pretty strong case, what with your confession and all”, and he tells me, “but the guys in my block said…”. I always tell them that there’s a reason that they send us to law school instead of, you know, PRISON before they let us practice law. There are all kinds of urban legal legends out there. My faves include: a penny in your mouth will defeat an intox (it won’t); the DA is legally required to give you 3 plea offers (um, no, he doesn’t even have to give you one); and if you ask an undercover officer 3 times if they’re undercover and they say no all 3 times, then it’s automatically entrapment. That leads to some amusing undercover audiotapes- “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Ok, here’s the dope. That’ll be $600, please”. Then when they slap the cuffs on, “But I asked you 3 times and you said no!!”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/32 "2008-10-31T20:50:58Z")
> [@The\_Unkempt\_One](#): > > He went on to say that he had used this technique at least once… I’d think that if someone had ACTUALLY used this technique, they would be able to remember whether it had been once or more than once. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432/33 "2008-11-01T00:15:52Z")
> [@katie1341](#): > > …There are all kinds of urban legal legends out there. My faves include: a penny in your mouth will defeat an intox (it won’t); the DA is legally required to give you 3 plea offers (um, no, he doesn’t even have to give you one); and if you ask an undercover officer 3 times if they’re undercover and they say no all 3 times, then it’s automatically entrapment. That leads to some amusing undercover audiotapes- “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Are you undercover?” “No.” “Ok, here’s the dope. That’ll be $600, please”. Then when they slap the cuffs on, “But I asked you 3 times and you said no!!”. Those are some doozies. A useful quotation for considering such arguments: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. CIR_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoid-a-traffic-ticket-by-ignoring-the-police-and-pulling-into-your-garage/470432.md?page=1)