# Avoiding red lights via turn-Uturn-turn **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230 "2007-01-09T00:51:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/21 "2007-01-09T21:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=justrob] Sorry, I don’t have any anecdotes or law cites to add. I just wanted to say I like this typo (if indeed it is a typo.) [/QUOTE] Automagically is a common term in computing, so it was probably intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/22 "2007-01-09T21:36:26Z")
[QUOTE=Joey P] Similarly, There’s two intersections I can think of off the top of my head where it is very common (due to the lenght of the red arrow and shortness of the green arrow) where it is quite common to go straight (through the green straight ahead arrow) make a U Turn then make a right on red instead of waiting for the left point green arrow to cycle back. One of them is getting rather common and well known and I’m guessing we got about another year before a no u turn sign shows up. [/QUOTE] Brother, there’s tons of those intersections around here. Drives me crazy that they’re set up that way. Really Eff’s up traffic flow in some parts. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/23 "2007-01-09T21:52:42Z")
The maneuver in the cartoon looks like the Michigan left in red [Michigan Highways: In Depth: The Michigan Left](http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth/michigan_left.html) with the right turn added at the end. I can see that a lot of people using this could create an obstruction or hazard because of the lane change needed just before the final right turn. As for going through an alley, it’s my understanding that here in Chicago/Cook County that an alley is not a thoroughfare, so just using one to go from street to street can get you ticketed. But I can’t find anything about that online. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/24 "2007-01-09T23:37:07Z")
One of my favourite pieces of non-aggressive road rage, is when the following happens: I’m waiting to turn left on the red (we drive on the left, and left on red is generally prohibited). A few other non-arseholes are dutifully queued up behind me. Mr Arsehole approaches from the rear, and cuts through the petrol station on the corner. But just as he commits himself to that move, the light flips green, and I power hard outta there and into the turn. Well, hot damn! Suddenly I’m there on the side street, and Mr Arsehole finds he has to give way to me - me, and the entire string of traffic he tried to avoid back on the other street, and possibly even a few people who’d arrived _later_ than him. Makes me all warm inside, it does. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/25 "2007-01-10T00:07:45Z")
[QUOTE=rowrrbazzle] The maneuver in the cartoon looks like the Michigan left in red [Michigan Highways: In Depth: The Michigan Left](http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth/michigan_left.html) with the right turn added at the end. [/QUOTE] This diagram looks very much like the intersection I mentioned in my previous post. So the “Michigan left” is alive and well in some parts of LA … . **Bill Door,** in this case I would argue that you aren’t **avoiding** the traffic control device. You’re actually interacting with it twice by making legal right-on-red turns. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/26 "2007-01-10T03:08:39Z")
I’ve been ticketed in two states for making a U-turn in the middle of the block. That appears to be the case depicted in the cartoon. So, in Washington and Missouri it would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/27 "2007-01-10T03:58:37Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] I can confirm that VTL 1225 forbids this. The actual text forbids avoiding a traffic control device, not an intersection. [/quote] It forbids both. > [@](#): > > § 1225. Avoiding intersection or traffic-control device. No person > shall drive across or upon a sidewalk, driveway, parking lot or private > property, or otherwise drive off a roadway, in order to avoid an > intersection or traffic-control device. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/28 "2007-01-10T07:32:33Z")
Google, “driving on private property to avoid a traffic signal” without quotes. Lotsa hits, notable being Nevada and New Jersey which use almost that exact phrase in their laws, plus municipal laws against the practice. California, where I used to live, doesn’t have a state law prohibiting it (to my knowledge) but many cities do. I know for sure that where I went to high school had it on the books because at least two of my friends got nailed for it. Relatively small town, attentive police, especially attentive to teenage driving = tickets galore. I was pulled over 4 times in two years for warnings/infractions so minor as to not warrant a ticket (light out, partially flat tire, “speeding” at 3-5 MPH over the limit, almost running a changing red light and stopping just over the line). You watched your driving in that town or you got caught doing something sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230/29 "2007-01-10T17:06:31Z")
I miss my New Jersey [jughandles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle) . ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/avoiding-red-lights-via-turn-uturn-turn/387230.md?page=1)